Elitist Jerks LF Post about Windfury vs. GoA

 03/13/07, 4:18 PM #46 Binkenstein mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter     Binkenstein Pandaren Shaman   Saurfang I go on a simpler reasoning. Number of party members that get a bonus from a totem. 2 WF v 5 GoA = GoA www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists
 03/13/07, 4:28 PM #47 Erongg Great Tiger     Lorentz Troll Shaman   No WoW Account That really isn't valid reasoning and you know it. There is nothing that states that the totems are equal by default, and thus that 5 > 2 means anything. For a member of a guild called QED I'd think you'd be a little more mathematical about it
03/13/07, 4:37 PM   #48
Morrigdu
Glass Joe

Draenei Shaman

Hyjal
 Originally Posted by Erongg I was bored at work and curious, so I plugged in Esdue's gear and spec (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...runner&n=Esdue) using a 3s/5s/5e cycle and came up with 1131 raid buffed DPS (Kings, Might, MOTW, SoE, Unleashed Rage, LOTP, Trueshot, no pots, no Battleshout) using GoA+Deadly, and 1160 DPS using WF. This is against a target with raid boss defense, and I believe the sheet assumes zero armor.
Question: did you use Dual Deadly for the GoA check? If so, the numbers are incorrect. Pf's parent post makes note that there is an error in the deadly calculation.

Using all the same parameters, but replacing instant for deadly in both calculations, with my gear and spec (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...jal&n=Morrigdu) I come up with WF+Instant offhand: 1201.68; GoA+2xInstant: 1184.06

So it would seem, using this particular tool, that WF is still a better choice than GoA for dagger rogues. On HKM attempts last week, just eyeballing the dps reports, it seems that this is fairly accurate. Caveats: they were attempts not kills, the numbers were not recorded for posterity, did 2 with GoA and 2 with WF. Needs actual testing, but my impression from a cursory examination did seem to bear out the dps differential indicated by the spreadsheet.

edit: corrected dps #s due to incorrect equipment entered in spreadsheet, conclusion still holds.

Last edited by Morrigdu : 03/13/07 at 4:45 PM.

 03/13/07, 4:45 PM #49 Nite_Moogle I prefer the term treasure hunting     Meatsaw Orc Death Knight   Mal'Ganis The difference of 34 DPS between the 2 rogues isn't even worth giving up the extra 5% dodge on the bear, much less the extra DPS that the crit and AP will give for the shaman, hunter, druid, and pet.
03/13/07, 4:50 PM   #50
Morrigdu
Glass Joe

Draenei Shaman

Hyjal
 Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle The difference of 34 DPS between the 2 rogues isn't even worth giving up the extra 5% dodge on the bear, much less the extra DPS that the crit and AP will give for the shaman, hunter, druid, and pet.
This is definitely true, if the druid is tanking (and even if dpsing). Group composition and the benefit to each individual has to be tallied up. In general I think we see, more rogues/warriors = windfury. More druids/hunters/shaman = GoA. All depends on how the raid leader stacks the groups.

 03/13/07, 4:59 PM #51 ETBrick Glass Joe   Brick Troll Rogue   Eldre'Thalas As far as Rogues are concerned there really is no competition between WF and GoA for combat specs. WF wins by a longshot, and of course warriors gain the most from WF as well. As far as groups with hunters/feral druids/mutilate rogues mixed in are concerned I would say drop totems for the classes that there are more of or try to come to a civil agreement on which totem to drop. If your group can not come to a consensus on which totem would be the best drop windwall.
03/13/07, 5:02 PM   #52
Erongg
Great Tiger

Lorentz
Troll Shaman

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Morrigdu Question: did you use Dual Deadly for the GoA check? If so, the numbers are incorrect. Pf's parent post makes note that there is an error in the deadly calculation. Using all the same parameters, but replacing instant for deadly in both calculations, with my gear and spec (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...jal&n=Morrigdu) I come up with WF+Instant offhand: 1201.68; GoA+2xInstant: 1184.06 So it would seem, using this particular tool, that WF is still a better choice than GoA for dagger rogues. On HKM attempts last week, just eyeballing the dps reports, it seems that this is fairly accurate. Caveats: they were attempts not kills, the numbers were not recorded for posterity, did 2 with GoA and 2 with WF. Needs actual testing, but my impression from a cursory examination did seem to bear out the dps differential indicated by the spreadsheet. edit: corrected dps #s due to incorrect equipment entered in spreadsheet, conclusion still holds.
I did use Dual Deadly, so assuming the Deadly calcs are wrong I've just redone the calcs using Instant Poison in all cases. The picture is basically the same. 1111 DPS with WF, 1077 DPS with GoA/Dual Instant. 34 DPS difference there.

03/13/07, 6:14 PM   #53
Binkenstein
mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter

Pandaren Shaman

Saurfang
 Originally Posted by Erongg That really isn't valid reasoning and you know it. There is nothing that states that the totems are equal by default, and thus that 5 > 2 means anything. For a member of a guild called QED I'd think you'd be a little more mathematical about it
When you're doing it on the fly, and you don't know various specs, gear, etc, then it is easier. Also, most Rogue/Warrior types like WF for the visual proc (ie: the "hey it's doing something" effect)

However, if you know all this information in advance, and can do the theorycraft calcs for it, then yes, math = win.

Also, I think most shamans will agree that we are slightly biased in our totem use. We tend to use what will benefit us if there isn't a clearcut superior totem.

Last edited by Binkenstein : 03/13/07 at 6:21 PM.

www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog

Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists

03/13/07, 6:24 PM   #54
GrizleyCQ
Don Flamenco

Draenei Shaman

Kilrogg
 Originally Posted by Binkenstein Also, I think most shamans will agree that we are slightly biased in our totem use. We tend to use what will benefit us if there isn't a clearcut superior totem.
I think this is the core of your argument for the agility totem. In basically any case involving 2+ melee in the group windfury is superior. I don't doubt there are some oddball cases where this is not true but as a rule, melee = windfury.

In most cases during raiding groups should be constructed in such a way that the totems to use is obvious. If you replaced a hunter in the example group with a warrior or another rogue for instance and you called it say "Melee_dps_group_01" you could assume the druid will be shreding away in catform 90% of the time. Then you have to decide is the benefit of GoA on the druid and shaman greater than Windfury on the melee - GoA on the melee. With current gear, no, the druid and shaman just suck it up and let the melee open a can with windfury.

 03/14/07, 2:02 AM #55 Durnitol Piston Honda   Durnitol Tauren Shaman   Mal'Ganis Last time I checked SW stats over a long fight, both DW warriors in my group had approximately 5% of their damage come from windfury. The rogue had even less. Based on this alone, I'd say Warrior=WF is fallacious. 2h warr = WF seems perfectly reasonable, however. GoA for the crits/AP on 2 DW warriors + hunter + rogue + me seems better than WF for 5% damage on 2 characters.
03/14/07, 2:27 AM   #56
Skiace
Don Flamenco

Troll Shaman

Dalaran
 Originally Posted by Durnitol Last time I checked SW stats over a long fight, both DW warriors in my group had approximately 5% of their damage come from windfury. The rogue had even less. Based on this alone, I'd say Warrior=WF is fallacious.
the extra damage is not the only reason warriors like windfury. don't forget the extra swings give extra rage. this benefit is hard to quantify. if you really wanted to test it, you should compare the damage output of:

-warrior with WF
-warrior with GoA
-warrior with no air totem

 03/14/07, 2:32 AM #57 Pane Piston Honda   Bashe Blood Elf Paladin   Al'Akir (EU) In kara, I've gone from my usual GoA to WF instead, and it nearly solved my entire 'shaman steals teh agro' issue, as well as finally putting our token rogue on top of the dmg meter for a while. we split kara groups between 1 full melee group, and one full caster/healer group, the obvious exception being the tank's pet lock. the group consists of -warrior tank -feral tank -rogue -lock -enhancement shaman Clearly GoA benefits more members of that group, but for overal performance, wf wins hands-down. More solid MT agro, higher rogue dmg (by a long margin) and lower shaman threat (well probably not that much lower, but 3%-ish less crit ) With agro more solidly on the tank, I don't have to diesel my dmg so much, so I actually can lay on the spank more than was the case before, while finding myself 'tanking' less.

 Elitist Jerks LF Post about Windfury vs. GoA