I swear I went page by page and searched for "Eye of Gruul" and still missed that. Can't believe it's happened, so my apologies there. I still stand behind the statement that this thread would be 100% better with some more verbiage in the first post. That being said, IO really appreciate Moshne's response. I'll try to summarize what we have said so far:

[Fathom-Brooch of the Tidewalker] = ~ 27.5 MP5

[Pendant of the Violet Eye]

Paladins:
- Spamming FOL will get you about 462 mana, assuming that with lag you actually cast every 2 seconds, except for your first cast. That's 19.25 MP5 plus the 40 INT and the mana/crit that comes from that.

Shaman:
- Much harder to calc, and it varies by fight. I found that in any fight where I'm mana-constrained, I'm either stop-casting HW every 10 seconds or so (which makes the trinket worthless), or chain-casting a down-ranked HW somewhere between every 2.5 to 5.0 seconds, which gives mana regen of 319 and 219, respectively, giving it a value (only in those fights) of 13.9 or 9.1 MP5, respectively. I use 5 INT = 1MP5 for conversion, as Blessing of Kings, increased crit, and the extra +13 Heal makes up the benefit I don't get in actual mana, so I'd calculate the whole trinket's value to be around 17 - 22 MP5 for Shaman. I haven't found anywhere that specifies if it procs off of every Chain Heal bounce, which would make it even better.

Priests:
- Don't know enough about their spell rotations and casting times to venture a guess.

[Eye of Gruul]

Paladins:
- If you're spamming FoL, you'll cast around every 1.5 - 2 seconds, depending on lag, but you can only gain the full cost of FoL back since it reduces the cost of the spell of 450 rather than giving you 450 mana back when you cast the next spell. That means that during a FoL spam, you'll be getting about 9 - 12 MP5 from that effect of the trinket (probably around 10).

Shaman:
- On a spam of down-ranked heals, you will hit between the 3 and 5 second range, probably, for an average of between 9 and 15 MP5, but it is still very luck-based. If it procs once in an 8-minute fight, that's worth about 4.7 MP5. If it procs twice, it's worth 9.4 MP5. In order to have it proc more than twice, consistently, during a boss fight, you'll have to cast around once every 3 seconds.

- On a spam of Chain Heals, what I've read suggests that it could proc off of any hit of a Chain Heal. So for fights like Ilhoof and Curator where you're casting Chain Heal constantly, it's likely to proc 3 or 4 times in a fight, and thus would be worth 14 or 19 MP5. I don't know how many fights past Kara are really Chain Heal intensive, but they would make this trinket incredibly useful.

Priests:
- Again, don't understand the mechanics, so you'll have to help me. I'd probably refer you to the Shaman "spam of down-ranked heals" to get some idea of what it's worth.

[Memento of Tyrande]
The max isn't actually 25MP5. If it proc'd at 1.5 seconds into the fight and every 45.5 seconds thereafter (that's as close to 45 as you could hope to hit), you'd get 26MP5, but that's not the point.

The first proc will hit when you first cast. For example, if you're casting every 1.5 seconds, will hit around 8.25 seconds into the fight and be worth 228 mana (76 * 3). Successive procs will come around 53.25 seconds apart, on average. That gives an average MP5 over the course of an 8 minute fight as 21.4 MP5. You're still likely to get 21.4 MP5 if you cast every 2 seconds. Here's a chart showing: Time between spells, Amount of Procs, Total MP5 Value

1.5, 9, 21.4 (calc'd as 9 procs @ 228 mana over 480 seconds)
2, 9, 21.4
3, 8, 19.0
4, 7 or 8, 16.6 or 19.0
5, 7, 16.6
6, 6 or 7, 14.3 or 16.6
7 - 10, 5 - 6, 11.9 - 14.3

You get the idea. You'll have to calc the usefulness for yourself, but it's obviously very good.

I'll have to look at the other trinkets to get average +Heal benefits from them, but please take a look at my math and tell me if I'm wrong.

Holy Priests don't have rotations. It's pretty much chain cancel-casting GHeal with the occassional PoM/Renew thrown in as well. This playstyle is abysmal for using the Pendant. :/

I tried to like it. I really did. It's just an awful trinket all-around for Priests, however. You just cannot get any good use out of it, short of a minor mana reduction on your spells... but even the Prayer Book is better for that.

I've failed at searching before too, but I didn't think you even tried since the first 2 items you asked about were in THIS thread. Oh well it happens and I do agree its good to have all this in one spot.


If it does proc off each hit I don't see how you are getting those calculations. .02 chance x3 to "gain" 430 mana.

lets assume you are spamming chain heal rank 5 (since CH4 is only 413 mana)
In one chain heal you have 3 chances to gain the proc.
so (1-.02)^3 is the chance not to proc on a 3 hit chain heal.
(.98)^3 = .9411
so we take the chance for at least one proc to be 1 minus this.
1- .9411 = .0589 or 5.89% chance to gain the proc.
overtime this would average out to 430 * .0589 = 25.327 mana saved in 2.5s
so 50.654 mp5. (My understanding is that it doesn't have an internal cooldown like other items that explicitly state their % chance to proc)

Also ssc/tk/hyjal/BT you will become a chain heal bot for most of the fights. Alot of AOE raid dmg and pallys will be on the MT etc etc. There are of course exceptions but its gotten to the point where I never equip other relics other than the chain heal (maybe if I am oom on RoS phase 2 I will put on the ssc HW and spam rank 1 but thats kind of a gimmick) one since I CH so often.

This trinket works as seperate heals for each target it hits. On highly intensive CoH fights, I have gotten 30-35 m/5 on several occasions.

Is that nonstop CoH spam?
In theory I would think you would get alot more.
So just wondering if the theory is wrong here.

Assume:
circle of healing hits 5 targets.
Cast time 1.5s.
Mana cost 450 mana.

The chance to get once proc on a 5 hit CoH would be
(1- ((1-.02)^5))= .096 = 9.6%

Multiply mana saved by chance to proc
430*.096 = 41.28 mana in 1.5s

SO take the number of casts in 5 secs to find mp5 equiv
(5s/1.5s)*41.28 = 137.6

This number does seem really high so I was wondering if this just wasn't ideal conditions or if there is somthing wrong with the theory here.

Those are extremely ideal conditions. You're assuming that you cast CoH every single CD. You assume 0 lag. You assume that it hits 5 people every time you cast it. Plus, you're probably wasting mana casting it that much because surely there isn't a fight where it's worthwhile to chain-cast CoH.

I'm trying to use this formula for some of the trinkets, and I'm coming way off apparently..

Like [Tome of Diabolic Remedy] is 396+heal for 20 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown.. so using your math, I would get

20/120*396 = 20/47520 = 0.00042088

How you get 66+heal out of that, I can't figure out. Unless I'm going about doing the math wrong on it.

edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. The math is D*H/C.

20*396/120= 7920/120 = 66

Just so others aren't confused, the original equation is correct, but you were doing the order of operations incorrectly. =b

As you pointed out, the H is in the numerator, not the denominator. The equation with parentheses would be (D/C)*H. You were originally doing D/(C*H).

For future reference, division and multiplication are in the same "priority" for mathematical operations, so they should be performed in order from left to right (your calculator does this, too). That's why D/C*H is the same as (D/C)*H and not the same as D/(C*H).

Heh... your math skills are just off. You were right the first time, but you were calculating this: 20/120*396 like this: 20/(120*396).

That's what I get for trying to do math while at work and not next to a calculator. Shame on me. But essentially, the secondary formula I posted works just the same, eh.. except for the VERY minor remainder that would follow (66 vs 66.0000013).

My apologies on the lack of parentheses in my formula =P. I'll go back and update it to prevent future confusion.

While I hadn't actually tried it, I never could see the huge benefits from having random haste buffs (or even temporary +healing buffs) when cast-canceling big heals... If I'm missing something please enlighten me.

As an example for "random haste buffs", I have been using Scarab of the Infinite Cycle for some time now. It certainly is situational for the reason you mention. Examples where I find it useful:

- Gruul. Beyond Growth 15, I rarely cancel heals, and I need every bit of HpS as we are frequently just 6 healers total. A Scarab proc is very nice there.

- SSC and TK trash. I do a lot of raidhealing with flashheal there. As soon as I get a Scarab proc, I switch to GHeal for mana efficiency. Regular GHeal speed is often too slow there (can't speak for other, probably better organized raids than ours).

All in all, it's a trinket I will keep, if only for these situations.

In terms of consistent benefit i think Stone+ memento is an overall better trinket selection.

If your experience with scarab contradict my opinion thats certainly good for you. In any event my opinion is this. If a situation arises where you need the scarab's haste to successfully keep up a target thats bad because its never going to be up when you need it. Further more I'm going to assume by your spec you cast regrowth and rejuv at least semi regularly ( otherwise spec GoN 5/5 and Nature's Focus or tranquil spirit) none of these spells benefit significantly from scarab ( or at least don't benefit your HPS) If you instead use Scarab like the priest who switches to a more efficient spot heal or two while the proc is up, well... you'd have to do some math but I'd be willing to bet the 22-25 mp/5 from memento proc or the 35-40 mp/5 from Stone beat the benefits of landing 1-2 faster HTs a minute.

Long story short with no way to make the haste active when you need there is no way to rely on the trinket. In short if an "oh shit" moment happens while the trinket proc'd its great, and in general you might love the feeling when NG and trinket are up together, but with a long internal cool down, and you having a host of instant casts to use its really not going to win the day. Where as an extra 5000 mana over the course of a fight from memento ( on top of 40 more healing) very well might allow you to have the mana to save the person who ate unexpected burst and not compromise your ability to heal a tank.

What if the scarab doesn't proc on grow 15? The MT dies? That would be bad, as it will not proc more often than it'll proc...

I can see how it helps trash with swapping flashes to GHs, but other than trash I really don't see you get that kind of benefit from it due to simply not using flash on bosses... And this is only true for priests as well, yet I see all healing classes use this.

Maybe for a resto shaman that's just topping everyone off with chain heal...

Overall "random burst HP/s" to me seems pretty useless in most cases as if you need more HP/s just for that one moment the chance for the trinket to proc at that very moment is very low (you can math it out if you wish), and people will die because it didn't proc... imo it's better to equip something that works all the time, with "on-use" trinkets for specific fights where you know there's a moment where you can put it into good effect, which again doesn't seem to be true in most fights as usually the "burst HP/S" phase is longer than the trinket duration and happens less often than the times the trinket will be useable (for example, prince phase 2 lasts longer than 20s, and your trinket gets wasted on phase 1 and 3, or grull it gets wasted for the lower grows AND doesn't last long enough for the tough grows).

Bottom line is I can see hardly any use for random burst healing trinkets and very situational use for "on use" burst healing trinkets.

I find the Scarab to be irreplaceable for Chain Heal healing. For instance, we assign one Resto shaman to heal the melee on Void Reaver, and Lurker, which means chain casting chain heal for the entirety of the fight. It really doesn't matter when the proc goes off, it allows for more casts per minute.

I agree with you, the trinket is situational, and I generally don't use it when I am single target healing, but I would be extremely hesitant to just throw it out.

The 45s cooldown on the sextant pretty much destroys any potential it might have had.

That your guild does not allow paladins to bid is probably due to the proc bonus being +dmg/heal instead of +heal, indicating it being worth more to damage dealers since a pure healer trinket would have more +heal for the same item value.

Is that a valid reason? Maybe, if healing in your raid is fine but DPS is lacking. It will also depend on whether a better alternative trinket is within reach for you.

As for comparing the trinket to alternatives: it very probably has a hidden cooldown (45s?).

Sometime she dies, yes. With 6 healers (4 of them priests with variable amounts of brain lag), that can always happen at growth 15 and higher, depending on cave-in, silence and kick luck. Actually, we've been up to growth 18, so it doesn't necessarily have to proc in 15 to be useful.

I agree with you that one should never rely on the Scarab to proc. Still, in that situation, I don't see which trinket would be better. I do have enough mana regeneration there, I do have enough +heal there for downranking in the earlier phases. In the high phases, I am chain-canceling, then chain-casting max-ranks. If every heal there is higher than 5000, I'm pretty sure an additional +100 heal would not keep my tank alive, though that's certainly statistically possible. Getting that 5000 HP there quicker will - sometimes - just save my tank.

What I actually considered as an alternative: using the Skyguard trinket at Gruul for more inspiration procs.

One more thing about the Scarab: it is one of only a few trinkets that scales with the rest of the equipment. And as such, I will be sure not to shard it anytime soon.

Actually, I'd also like to point out it can hit pets and shadowfiends. I find it pretty ideal for Void Reaver too.

I wonder if Blizzard is going to ninja nerf this with a hidden cooldown in 2.3, has anyone tested it?

Would a viable trinket for my spec be Wushoolay's Charm of Nature from the edge of madness event?
It's has a 3 minute cooldown and the use is "Grants 400 (25.4%) spell haste rating, and reduces the mana cost of Rejuvenation, Healing Touch, Regrowth, and Tranquility by 5% for 15 sec."

My question is, would this ability to activate spell haste be good when considering my spec or should i just stick to stone + memento?

I just got the Eye of Gruul today, on a "retro" raid by my guild =P

After reading (scanning the later pages, that was a lot =P ) most of the thread, I haven't seen anyone say if Eye of Gruul has a proc per minute limit. I know there doesn't seem to be hidden cooldown, but a guildmate of mine says it has a PPM.

I've looked at several boards and I haven't seen anyone mention it, and was curious if anyone has any idea?

I'm thinking of pairing it along with either the Alchemists Stone, or the Earring of Soulful Meditation on CoH spam heavy fights.

My normal trinket selection is usually the Earring, along with Essence of the Martyr or Alchemist Stone (depending on the fight).

Thanks!

edit: It's late and I can't type.