• Deris

Reckoning = the next 4 TF swings will all be doubles since it is under 2.0 speed (I think - I haven't been prot in a long time) which would be considerably better for proc % change probably.

 

Buiden

Yeah if thats the case it would be decent, been a while since I've looked at the prot pally stuff as well TBH. Anyway as long as you can keep spamming instant abilities it is good, if you can't, not so good.

 

Candremen

As well as if you have a shaman in your party with WF totem down you push even more swings out of reckoning. The problem I'm running into though is that paladins don't rely on white damage to produce threat. In fact they get no additional threat from white damage at all. Because of the slower TF speed, Seal of Righteousness is more powerful. And the faster blazeguard/blazefury is ~5-7 or so less damage per swing with righteousness and therefore ~4.5-13.3 less threat or so with Righteous Fury up. What I'm having trouble with the math though is does 1 point of white damage = 1 point of threat to a class that doesn't have any inate adds or subracts to threat? If this were the case then the faster blazes would be mitagated by the vast increase in white dps over TF. I guess the biggest question of it all is the consistant white damage increase from blazes > the periodic higher damage from TF proc. Also, being a pally, STR isn't really in our sets (not to mention the horrible set bonuses on Prot T5, but that's a different story) so the white damage isn't really increased alot by this. With so few pally tanks with TF it's hard to get much data on all of this. Any input would greatly help.

 

mils

Yep devo = devastate

 

• Chicken

It's still not as good as it is for a Warrior though, Reckoning is only a 10% chance on being hurt by a direct damage attack, and while it does mean your next four swings are doubled, a Warrior would still get in a significant amount of more hits in, say, a 5 minute time period. The same counts for if you were to count Windfury in; Windfury gets better the more swings you can get into a time period, and being able to use an instant swing every 1.5 seconds (A bit slower most likely for a few reasons) is better than having the occasional four extra swings.

I can remember doing some calculating on the subject of TF for a Paladin before, and it came out to be just a little bit worse than one of the myriad of 121 spell damage weapons out there. It's mostly good for the mitigation the attack speed slowing would provide.

Edit:

To the Paladin a few posts above this, the speed for a weapon is inconsequential when it comes to Seal of Righteousness, the ability is scaled in a manner that the amount of extra Holy DPS you get from having it active is a constant. The only exception being that the DPS of Seal of Righteousness is higher with a two-hander than a one-hander, but this is unrelated to the weapon's speed.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Ragnor

Not really sure why you guys are arguing about a weapon that's basically a relic. It does looks pretty and shiny in videos and stuff

Even paladin's that have TF don't use it for raid tanking (ask Theras) a +dmg weapon is so much better threat. For a warrior a high dps 1h'er offers better threat, a more suitable speed, more stm, more mitigation. In a raid you're going to/you should have multiple warriors on debuffing duty (demo, thunderclap etc) so what's the advantage of using TF?

Sure it's good for 5 mans where you don't have thunderclap (paladins) or you are too lazy or rage starved to cast it (warriors) but honestly you could tank 5 mans with a 1h fish probably if you're at a post kara/gruul/mag level of gear.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Rosvall

Aint 20% melee autoattack damage reduction worth it?

I know it dont stack with thunder clap, but compared with that you gain 10% melee autoattack damage reduction, aswell as saving 40 rage, which would give a higher threat boost than the plain dps upgrade?

 

• Chicken

Improved Thunder Clap makes Thunder Clap a 20% attack speed slow, and I have no idea where you got that 40 rage from, but the base cost is 20 rage and it's 16 rage with the Improved Thunder Clap talent.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Gokey

I've been using TF on my prot warrior since the day I got it. Nowadays, it does seem like a toss-up, but in my personal opinion; I find it to be superior to all tanking weapons.

Keeping up debuffs is a royal pain in the ass while tanking. Not having to worry about one of them alleviates some extra time for more TPS. Sure, an off-tank could do it.. but our warriors do a lot of damage when they aren't tanking, they don't have rage to be wasted on TC. I do think that it is a weapon suited only to MTs nowadays anyways, as the massive amount of rage-free threat it puts out over time adds up to a hefty amount of aggro.

Not only does each proc free up global cooldown and save rage, it also has an additional chance to proc on the devastate that you just used instead of Thunder Clap.

Mobs just seem to stick to me to glue when I'm using Thunderfury. Granted, this is all based on empirical observation and evidence -- but I think most tanks that use TF share the same viewpoint. Maybe when we start getting 110 dps weapons, the sacrifice will be worth it to a select few. But that's a ways off.

We only use 2 tanks on Void Reaver. A Feral Druid and our MT (he also uses thunderfury). No one has pulled aggro off either of them yet.

Is it worth farming if you don't have it? Probably not.

Is it worth using over King's Defender or Blazeguard if you're MT? Most definitely.

We've cleared both T5 instances, so we kinda sorda know what we're doing (not really though).

 

Rosvall

Sorry I ment to say 40 rage per min. Which then is 32 rage per min. So the ability to control the 20% debuff vs 32 rage per min and two (?) free talentpoints.

 

• Kelce

It is still a very relevant raid weapon. The jumping proc helps with any multimob pull (Tidewalker Murlocs or any singel group instance for example) especially when used in conjunction with Imp Thunderclap, it also procs often enough to keep up with the higher DPS weapons available.

 

Edghar

I still use mine when:

• Thunderclap isn't viable (sheeps nearby etc)
• Sitting around in Shattrath
• Taking screenshots of boss kills

The rest of the time I use my Blazeguard.

 

• Deris

Our MT also still uses TF and he said he will not be replacing it until he gets the 1.6 sword from Hyjal, or the Tank axe from BT. The TPS is still amazing, and it is bar-none the best threat on high armor targets, and will continue to remain so until a new replacement comes along.

 

suicuique

Emphasise mine.
I have banked my blazeguard, and opted not to upgrade to blazefury, because my DDer told me that with TF my aggro is *still* higher.
The axe from BT is the next weapon on my to get list. Just in case this one is indeed better.

 

Buiden

Yeah I don't plan to bank mine until I have either the tank sword or axe out of Hyjal/BT. Still an amazing weapon, use it if you have it.

 

Ushikawa

Actually as a protection tank, you'll likely have Focused Rage, which reduces Thunderclap's rage cost by an additional 3, making it 13 rage, so about 26 per minute. It's also three talent points.

I used to have Thunderfury until I deleted it when I quit back in February(go me!).

Since coming back I've had a King's Defender and with its fast attack speed and much higher white damage than TF, Mongoose, and 9 rage Heroic Strikes, I'm able to hold aggro just about as well. We downed Void Reaver tonight and I believe I was knocked back three or four times before the second tank overtook me.

While I agree that nothing came close to comparing to TF pre-tbc, with all the huge mitigation on weapons now, and the lack of stats on TF, I just don't see it being as amazing as it used to, especially if you're able to get MotT or better.

 

mils

The mallet I have found on average does 60 damage more on devastate on a full sundered mob than TF does. So I'm using that now as unless tf is proccing more then once in every 5 hits (20% proc rate) the mallet should be more tps.

Yerp you lose tps in your cast cycle doing thunderclap and demo etc but you can if its a very rage limited or tps heavy fight to get the OT's to do that stuff for you.

 

suicuique

Are you sure about that?
Because weapon range affects devastate only at half the rate.
Weapon range of mallet = 159, Thunderfury = 102.5.

Delta in weapon range is 56.5.

But only half of that "goes into" the devastate total. That would be a mere plus of 28.25 for the mallet (for a target with 0% AC mitigation). Double that for a crit.

ALL other factors like AP bonus, Sunder Bonus, crit rating multiplier, target mitigation are identical for Thunderfury or the Mallet when using devastate.

In short: I doubt your devastates with the mallet hit on average for 60 more then they do with thunderfury. And IIRC my data when farming with either the Decapicator or Thunderfury back up my claim.

 

mils

Yep. I have the numbers, on average I would get 220 devastates with TF and I was getting consistently 260-280 with mallet.

The defense on the mallet helps with resistance fights like hydross as well...

 

gakutomagnum

I wish they'd upgrade TF. Even just pushing anoither 20-30 damage on both ends would mean it'd sky rocket up to 95-100 DPS since a portion is passively armor ignoring.

 

Sapa

We are trigger happy folks and have two tanks.
(we dps before tank has chance to hit the mob - sometimes)

Tank1, Tank2

T1 - Mallet (logged in FR gear - Leo)
The Armory

T2 - TF
The Armory

Now things that we found out. (we are all class leads/officers/RLs so we talk allot)
T1 grabs aggro really fast and maintains it on single mobs without problems. Has more problems with 3+ mobs than T2.

T2 initial aggro and first few (10-20) seconds is sometimes far lower (probably tied to TF procs) but after that he has solid grip on single mob. But his AoE tanking is well rock solid.
(we did all 5 mans together 60-70 and I had to yell at him to let 3rd/4th mob go into trap, in raids he (off)tanks everything that comes in packs...)

T2 himself said that he must get used to non-tf weapon for single targets, since he got used to proc aggro. (Lady Vashj was bit of pain with him as MT, 3 misdirects and salvation allover the raid) He experimented allot with KD but his conclusion was that he likes TF more.

So I'm under impression that TF still reigns supreme for more mobs while on single target Mallet is better. And second... each tank with TF is attached to it and don't want to let it go

TF proc, does it work with Stormstrike, Misery or similar debufs?

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/511456SFyyX.png

 

Deci

It gains additional damage from Stormstrike, no idea how much this affects threat however. I do not think the proc is affected by Misery as it affects spell damage only, while stormstrike says Nature damage specifically.

 

• frmorrison

Not going to happen, the devs don't like the TF is still good.


Misery/Stormstrike will add to TF's damage and thus its threat.

 

Rekcinad

Thunderfury is basically a free 3 talent points, as Imp. TC becomes obsolete. For the first few seconds of the fight the proc isn't reliable enough as you're still spamming sunder up but once you start on the Revenge, SS and Devastate cycle then the proc count goes way up because of Devastate. From experience I noticed that once you start on Devastate the proc is almost continuously active.

I'm guessing MotT vs. TF would probably be a close call. TF has the free 3 talent points that could be spend on mitigation/threat talents and proc threat, MotT has better mitigation stats and a bigger white damage range as well as higher Devastates.

A guildie once said that MotT was the first weapon in the progression string to get more TPS than Thunderfury, although I have never seen this confirmed in any calculation sheets. I'm still sticking to Thunderfury I guess, not going to replace it till I've got BT/HS access.

 

gakutomagnum