I see this sentiment thrown around a whole lot on the Blizzard forums. "Ya gotta have Improved Shadowbolt and Bane!" Everyone follows this mantra and rarely deviates from it. I posted on the Warlock forum on this issue a while back, but got nothing but flames. I hope to maybe have a slightly better reception here.

I've never had the "Big 10" for any more than an exploratory respec that might last 2 days. Up until patch 2.0 I was 30/21/0 and am currently 44/17/0 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IAMMiRfkqtbobxczsb) I see Bane and Improved Shadowbolt as valuable talents, for sure, but they often seem taken into account in a pure vacuum of the spreadsheet void. There are multiple reasons why I prefer 44/17/0 to, say, 43/7/11.

1- Firstly, and most importantly, this isn't Molten Core! Fights since BWL have been getting progressively less "tank and spank" and from what I've seen this trend isn't going away. Thus, the ability to load out direct damage spells .5 seconds faster loses much of it's appeal when you have DoTs ticking round the clock. Bane isn't as much of a %DPS boost as one might find on paper when you're working with Line-of-sight, add control, movement and other varieties of gimmicks in the dynamic encounters we've been getting the past year.

2- It costs more mana. You're casting the spell more often, therefore, using more mana for more damage. This naturally isn't a bad thing, but it isn't a straight damage boost because you are consuming more mana. It isn't "free damage" like SM, S&F, Emberstorm, etc. but everyone loves to call it "free damage".

3- Aggro. Sometimes you just can't go all out. What good is more damage if you're going to have to throttle it back anyway?

4- Drain Life is a great spell to use situationally. Getting pelted with a random target attack? Is there AoE? Need to keep the aggro down? Want high damage-per-mana? All these are situations where you are not casting Shadowbolt. No, Drain Life will never be a replacement for Shadowbolt, but it does have its uses which do cut into your bolting time.

5- Maybe not a consideration here as these are predominantly raid boards, but Demonology utility/passives are quite nice in other avenues of the game. Between farming, PvP, etc things like Demonic Aegis and Feldom/Master Summoner can come in handy! Aegis, albeit only 6% extra healing and 30dmg, is quite nice. Even Feldom can be a lifesaver in a raid when you get and OOM imp, snag a battlerez and need a new one, or need a Felhunter for dispel or Voidwalker for a shield in a pinch.

I'm not trying to bash on Bane. There are fights where it is very useful such as Curator, Heroic Shaffar, etc. It's a nice talent...but I just hate to see it as "the only option"

Tell me I'm not crazy :P

Pre-changes/70, a Rogue who went 15/31/5 because it was the 'best dps spec' was not an idiot, they were considered smart for looking into the best build available.

However our top dpsing Warlock has both Bane and Imp. SB in their Affliction spec. There are times when NF will proc, where you have no DoTs to reapply, in those times you will SB or sit on your ass doing nothing or doing less DPS than your else-wise would be, not to mention when Imp SB procs you also help raid DPS not just your own.

True on the other parts to an extent. But our only regular lock is Fire and we don't run with Shadowpriests...

There is a difference between going with the best build for dps, and doing something because everyone else is doing it. Often when I make that point people confuse the two. The latter was what I was talking about, not the former.

bane is only necessary if you are concerned with your dps. a lot of your points are arguable... theres plenty of time to stand and nuke on mobile fights, affliction locks don't have mana problems, everyone has salvation now (and soulshatter), and while the utility and diversity of the class is great, it was little to do with raid dps. bane also reduces the cast time of another dot, which is very useful to afflction in its own merit.

install sw_stats and create a frame that shows the % of your damage done by each spell. run it during a boss fight without bane. to see what you would have with bane, add 20% to the damage done by shadowbolt. imp SB is harder to quantify, as it varies with crit rate, but it too is a significant boost to dps. you can claim all you want about movement and line of sight and add control, a huge portion of your dps is from shadow bolt.

"random attack" - if this is in a raid, mobs usually kill you if they target you. if this isn't a raid, you can spec whatever you please and do just fine
aoe - a good time to drain life. how many fights have extensive aoe where this will be useful?
aggro - soulshatter, BoS, shrouding potions. the 10% threat reduction on drain isn't what will keep you from pulling aggro, it's the fact that it does inferior DPS so you simply can't out-aggro a tank.
dpm - you have dark pact. if you finally run yourself oom, that's when you should LT and drain.

the uses of drain life are few and far between, while shadow bolt is used all the time.

if you care about dps, the talents in demo don't come close. while your example of being battlerezzed and needing an imp back out is a good time to have some points in demo, think of how frequently that occurs, and then think of how frequently you need to shadow bolt.

seriously, I don't even understand how this could be a debate. if you want better dps, you need bane and imp shadowbolt. if you don't care about dps... then hell, spec imp firestone because it's really cool, or something.

Depends how many other Warlocks are in the raid, keeping DOTs up. (Soul Siphon)

Donno. People can theorycraft all they want. But I'm pretty sure with 0 Destruction talents and 3 Warlocks in a 25-man, you'd do some fairly disgusting DPS with nothing but full DOTS + Drain Life spam. Lobbing a SB everytime NF procs. Take into consideration that Affliction Warlocks don't need near as much +hit gear with Suppression. This allows you to more completely focus on shadow spellpower, IMO. With full consumables, the 1300-1400 range with minimal hit gear is pretty normal.

..but for PVP and 10-mans like Karazhan, I'd say not having at least 10 in Destruction is pretty debilitating.

Lamaros, you take a spec and just run with it. I used to remember when you were fervently pro-demonology. If the OP like the perks in demo, he can spec them. As long as you realize you won't be doing as much dps. Also ensure you're pulling your weight on a raid. Your freedom to spec whatever you want isn't limited as much as a healer, but keep it in mind.

I was, in terms of leveling. Still am. Demo is the best leveling (read: normal 5 man, soloing, and grinding) spec.

But we're talking PvE DPS now, which Demo isn't as good at (not Affliction/Demo, anyway).

I thought that was the point? Of course anyone can spec anything if they don't care about being as effective in their role as possible.

They asked why everyone thinks Bane and Imp SB are must have, and argued for some Demo. I think I detailed the cons of their spec in regards to the "expected" one pretty well, I didn't say they had to change.

Note: I'm not saying Affliction/Bane is the best spec for PvE. I think there are very decent specs in heavy Destro and Demo. (I'm thinking of respeccing to give them a whirl myself.) I'm just arguing Affliction/Bane over Affliction/Demo.

I think affliction is the best pve dps spec too, but not for reasons directly related to dps. If it weren't for how much I hated affliction's playstyle, I would spec that way too. Like my felguard too much.

I don't know, I tried it and couldn't stand it. The whole "dot up 3 mobs and then AE fear them" method makes assumptions I don't like. Mainly that you're in a clear space and you're fighting melee mobs. Plus, any speed benefit gained from this method is wasted running around looting the mobs. I've found demo spec to be a nice even keel. Immo, shadow bolt, searing pain, next mob. Gotta stop about every 10 mobs and heal up my pet. Use corruption, immo, drain life when you're low on health.