Draele

I see this sentiment thrown around a whole lot on the Blizzard forums. "Ya gotta have Improved Shadowbolt and Bane!" Everyone follows this mantra and rarely deviates from it. I posted on the Warlock forum on this issue a while back, but got nothing but flames. I hope to maybe have a slightly better reception here.

I've never had the "Big 10" for any more than an exploratory respec that might last 2 days. Up until patch 2.0 I was 30/21/0 and am currently 44/17/0 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IAMMiRfkqtbobxczsb) I see Bane and Improved Shadowbolt as valuable talents, for sure, but they often seem taken into account in a pure vacuum of the spreadsheet void. There are multiple reasons why I prefer 44/17/0 to, say, 43/7/11.

1- Firstly, and most importantly, this isn't Molten Core! Fights since BWL have been getting progressively less "tank and spank" and from what I've seen this trend isn't going away. Thus, the ability to load out direct damage spells .5 seconds faster loses much of it's appeal when you have DoTs ticking round the clock. Bane isn't as much of a %DPS boost as one might find on paper when you're working with Line-of-sight, add control, movement and other varieties of gimmicks in the dynamic encounters we've been getting the past year.

2- It costs more mana. You're casting the spell more often, therefore, using more mana for more damage. This naturally isn't a bad thing, but it isn't a straight damage boost because you are consuming more mana. It isn't "free damage" like SM, S&F, Emberstorm, etc. but everyone loves to call it "free damage".

3- Aggro. Sometimes you just can't go all out. What good is more damage if you're going to have to throttle it back anyway?

4- Drain Life is a great spell to use situationally. Getting pelted with a random target attack? Is there AoE? Need to keep the aggro down? Want high damage-per-mana? All these are situations where you are not casting Shadowbolt. No, Drain Life will never be a replacement for Shadowbolt, but it does have its uses which do cut into your bolting time.

5- Maybe not a consideration here as these are predominantly raid boards, but Demonology utility/passives are quite nice in other avenues of the game. Between farming, PvP, etc things like Demonic Aegis and Feldom/Master Summoner can come in handy! Aegis, albeit only 6% extra healing and 30dmg, is quite nice. Even Feldom can be a lifesaver in a raid when you get and OOM imp, snag a battlerez and need a new one, or need a Felhunter for dispel or Voidwalker for a shield in a pinch.

I'm not trying to bash on Bane. There are fights where it is very useful such as Curator, Heroic Shaffar, etc. It's a nice talent...but I just hate to see it as "the only option"

Tell me I'm not crazy :P

 

◊ Binkenstein

Personally, I view anyone that uses specific talents in their build because everyone says they should to be an idiot.

That is not to say that if you use those talents you're an idiot, more if your reasoning is the "sheep mentality".

Reasoning out your own build, given the situations you will find yourself in, and your playstyle, is the best way to go. I've often had talent builds outside the norm to play with, and am usually labelled a fool for trying things myself, but I shrug those comments off.

In the end, put your build together with your play style in mind, whether it be full out dps, dot-centric, etc.

 

• Playered

Pre-changes/70, a Rogue who went 15/31/5 because it was the 'best dps spec' was not an idiot, they were considered smart for looking into the best build available.

However our top dpsing Warlock has both Bane and Imp. SB in their Affliction spec. There are times when NF will proc, where you have no DoTs to reapply, in those times you will SB or sit on your ass doing nothing or doing less DPS than your else-wise would be, not to mention when Imp SB procs you also help raid DPS not just your own.

 

Draele

True on the other parts to an extent. But our only regular lock is Fire and we don't run with Shadowpriests...

 

◊ Binkenstein

There is a difference between going with the best build for dps, and doing something because everyone else is doing it. Often when I make that point people confuse the two. The latter was what I was talking about, not the former.

 

• frmorrison

For PvP and maximing your PvE dps as Affliction, you need Bane. You need something to cast between DoTs, and if you want to see the effect of Bane (it is the best 5 point dps talent in all the Lock trees), just use a Lock dps spreadsheet.

 

niska

bane is only necessary if you are concerned with your dps. a lot of your points are arguable... theres plenty of time to stand and nuke on mobile fights, affliction locks don't have mana problems, everyone has salvation now (and soulshatter), and while the utility and diversity of the class is great, it was little to do with raid dps. bane also reduces the cast time of another dot, which is very useful to afflction in its own merit.

 

doogless

install sw_stats and create a frame that shows the % of your damage done by each spell. run it during a boss fight without bane. to see what you would have with bane, add 20% to the damage done by shadowbolt. imp SB is harder to quantify, as it varies with crit rate, but it too is a significant boost to dps. you can claim all you want about movement and line of sight and add control, a huge portion of your dps is from shadow bolt.

"random attack" - if this is in a raid, mobs usually kill you if they target you. if this isn't a raid, you can spec whatever you please and do just fine
aoe - a good time to drain life. how many fights have extensive aoe where this will be useful?
aggro - soulshatter, BoS, shrouding potions. the 10% threat reduction on drain isn't what will keep you from pulling aggro, it's the fact that it does inferior DPS so you simply can't out-aggro a tank.
dpm - you have dark pact. if you finally run yourself oom, that's when you should LT and drain.

the uses of drain life are few and far between, while shadow bolt is used all the time.

if you care about dps, the talents in demo don't come close. while your example of being battlerezzed and needing an imp back out is a good time to have some points in demo, think of how frequently that occurs, and then think of how frequently you need to shadow bolt.

seriously, I don't even understand how this could be a debate. if you want better dps, you need bane and imp shadowbolt. if you don't care about dps... then hell, spec imp firestone because it's really cool, or something.

 

Vazu

Depends how many other Warlocks are in the raid, keeping DOTs up. (Soul Siphon)

Donno. People can theorycraft all they want. But I'm pretty sure with 0 Destruction talents and 3 Warlocks in a 25-man, you'd do some fairly disgusting DPS with nothing but full DOTS + Drain Life spam. Lobbing a SB everytime NF procs. Take into consideration that Affliction Warlocks don't need near as much +hit gear with Suppression. This allows you to more completely focus on shadow spellpower, IMO. With full consumables, the 1300-1400 range with minimal hit gear is pretty normal.

..but for PVP and 10-mans like Karazhan, I'd say not having at least 10 in Destruction is pretty debilitating.

 

Lamaros

Yeah sorry OP. If you're not getting Bane and Imp SB you're gimping your dps.

1: There aren't that many, if any, fights where I don't SB nuke at some point. Illhoof is the ONLY fight where I can't remember SBing at some point.
2: Not spending mana might be more efficient, but it's a hell of a lot less damage you're doing. If you're affliction you pretty much have infinite mana. Thus it is very close to "free" damage. Most other specs have no other option, nuking with SB is a large part of their DPS.
3: Soul Shatter and the 10% less threat talents means I don't get aggo unless it's a fight with aggro drops. Then everyone has to be careful and the point is moot. DoTs are often worse on these fights than DD.
4: You use drain life to get health quickly, that's it. The damage from it cannot touch SB. (oh, you use it in situations where you need instantcasts for some reasons too)
5: Lock utility in lower Demo tree is marginal, very marginal. More damage is more damage in ALL situations.

All your 44/17 has over my 39/1/21 is:

200something health on your HS'. Marginal health and no good for me as other in my guild have 2/2 anyway.
More Stamina. I have over 10k raidbuffed, I don't need more.
3% more Int and 15% more on your pet. Mana is not an issue for me, or for anyone with dark pact.
1% more health. Next to nothing.
30 more spelldamage and 6% more gain from healing. 30spelldamage is less than 3% of my total, that's pretty marginal. The healing likewise.
Master Summoner. I always have my imp out and phase shifted.

With the exception of you having a decent slice more HP there is nothing you gain that matters in any real way, but there is a lot you lose.

Thus, they are "required" for a reason. There is no other way to get a comparable DPS boost.


There is perhaps one exception:

Demo/Affliction spec. Could get away with Immo&Incin or Drain Life. Though it might also be that Demo/Destro would do more damage you could argue that Demo/Affliction does near the same, with some other useful things in Affliction. I havn't been specced like this for a while so I can't comment at length. (Though when I was Demo I do remember SB being near/more dps than Incin even with 2.5sec Incins with Immo up.)

Affliction/DS is of course another argument. But you lose very real and important things from being DS specced (Imp is still a big deal) and not many guilds will be able to support it.

 

Deathwing

Lamaros, you take a spec and just run with it. I used to remember when you were fervently pro-demonology. If the OP like the perks in demo, he can spec them. As long as you realize you won't be doing as much dps. Also ensure you're pulling your weight on a raid. Your freedom to spec whatever you want isn't limited as much as a healer, but keep it in mind.

 

Lamaros

I was, in terms of leveling. Still am. Demo is the best leveling (read: normal 5 man, soloing, and grinding) spec.

But we're talking PvE DPS now, which Demo isn't as good at (not Affliction/Demo, anyway).

I thought that was the point? Of course anyone can spec anything if they don't care about being as effective in their role as possible.

They asked why everyone thinks Bane and Imp SB are must have, and argued for some Demo. I think I detailed the cons of their spec in regards to the "expected" one pretty well, I didn't say they had to change.

Note: I'm not saying Affliction/Bane is the best spec for PvE. I think there are very decent specs in heavy Destro and Demo. (I'm thinking of respeccing to give them a whirl myself.) I'm just arguing Affliction/Bane over Affliction/Demo.

 

Deathwing

I think affliction is the best pve dps spec too, but not for reasons directly related to dps. If it weren't for how much I hated affliction's playstyle, I would spec that way too. Like my felguard too much.

 

Mondragon

Affliction is also best for grinding

 

Deathwing

I don't know, I tried it and couldn't stand it. The whole "dot up 3 mobs and then AE fear them" method makes assumptions I don't like. Mainly that you're in a clear space and you're fighting melee mobs. Plus, any speed benefit gained from this method is wasted running around looting the mobs. I've found demo spec to be a nice even keel. Immo, shadow bolt, searing pain, next mob. Gotta stop about every 10 mobs and heal up my pet. Use corruption, immo, drain life when you're low on health.

 

doogless

no, it doesn't.

assuming 900 +shadow (reasonable if you're a frozen shadoweave tailor):

drain life gets +450 spread over its duration. it gets full affect because it has 5 ticks, and is halved because it's a leech effect. max rank DL does 108/tick, totaling 990 over 5 seconds. when the +dmg is added in. add in shadow mastery (10%) and full soul siphon (60%) for 1742 damage over 5 seconds.

shadow bolt gets 783 from +dmg as it's a 3 second cast. max rank SB has an average base damage of 572. add in shadow mastery (10%) for 1490 damage over 3 seconds. over 5 seconds, this is 2484 damage. if you add in bane, it becomes 2980 damage in those 5 seconds.

even with full soul siphon and even without bane, shadow bolt does more dps than drain life. the only time you should be using drain life is when you actually need the healing component.

 

Deathwing

Actually, it gets more than full bonus. 5/3.5*.5 is the bonus it gets. Even then, it doesn't match shadowbolt. Only time even comes close is if you focus strictly on +damage and have poor +hit and +cit. If itemization was more catered to that style, it might be a plausable high dps build. Certainly a high survivability build. Too bad only focusing on one stat(+damage or +shadow) suffers heavily in the item budget rules.

 

• frmorrison

I use Shadowbolt much more than DL, but Drain Life is good when you are near the aggro cap or for cheap mana gains (Tap then DL).

 

TheOnly

1. Drain life gets 5/3.5 times the bonus you list.
2. DL is affected by suppression. Thus, on a raid boss you can stack less %hit and more damage.
3. DL, when it does get resisted, loses 1.5/5 of its dps for that cast, shadowbolt loses 100% of its cast.

In total, DL ends up about = to non-bane, non improved SB if full soul siphon aganinst a +3 mob.
That just doesn't happen much.



-------------

Even if you are the only shadow damage dealer in the group, improved shadow bolt and bane will help you. I gained a lot of dps from switching from my leveling build (49/10/0 at 68) to 45/5/11. An improved shadowbolt proc increases my dps of all the dots by 20% and I make sure to use up all but one charge to maximize the time it is on. Those 11 in destro don't help my soloing or farming, but they do make a big difference in groups large or small.

If there is positioning required, you can move while casting 2 or 3 of your dots, and life tap / dark pact. On trash mobs, bane/shadowburn is essential for dps if focused fire is important.

I played a lot of 30/21/0 in the 'old' days, as well as some 9/21/21 for raiding later. The reason bane is so important for the dot playstyle now is simply that you give up _so little_ to get it. And its not just bane, but iSB along with it.

If you don't have it, IMO you should make sure you get some other raid or group useful debuff like 5/5 shadow embrace, imp. CoW, or malediction.

 

◊ Twid

I'm curious what dps cycles people are using as affliction. In order to maximize DoT efficiency, is there a specific cycle that allows for DoTs to be reapplied the instant the last tick fires?

I could see bane not being essential if the difference in cast time did not grant a full extra bolt without sacrificing the cycles of the DoTs.

I guess if you figure a cycle of UA, SL, CoA, Corr, you have 6.5 seconds of global cooldown, and another 1.5 if you life tap or dark pact. That leaves you with 10 seconds before the UA expires. If you want to time it so your UA is applied the instant it fades, you have to start casting just under 2 seconds from the end of the DoT. This would put you at 8 seconds of shadowbolt spam time. You would have enough time for three talented shadowbolts, that consume 7.5 seconds, or 2 untalented shadowbolts that consume 6 seconds.

With latency, can you reliably get those three shadowbolts to land before you eat into the UA timer? That would be the only way I could see Bane not being worthwhile.

[13:45] <kenlyric> goddammit, I wish google news had a "only real news" alert.
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doogless

it appears I'm a noob, I thought channeled spells were treated like DoTs, where the damage you get is dependent on the number of ticks rather than the casting time of the channel.

 

Draele

Spell duration.

(3.5/5)/2 for Drain Life.

 

• Kestrel

At least at the 25-person level most warlocks won't be casting CoA on bosses, they'll just be applying curse of shadows/elements/whatever at the beginning of a combat and so the cycle won't include that 1.5 seconds. So you'd have 9.5 seconds of shadowbolt spam time, in which you certainly wouldn't be able to get in 3 untalented shadowbolts unless you have virtually no latency, but you can definitely get in 3 talented ones.

The other thing to consider is that for those warlocks who don't have frozen shadowweave (and thus have most of their damage in generic +damage rather than +shadow) i