Bane: Really An Affliction Necessity? - Page 2

Antoine · 03/19/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Draele

My shadow is 1093 and my Fire is only ~700ish and Immolate is still worth casting. And I do cast CoA, actually. Our only other regular Warlock is Fire, and he keeps Elements up for himself and the Mages and I use CoA.

Correct about Immolate, I also have way more shadow than fire but the difference in cast time between Immolate and Shadowbolt makes Immolate better DPS. As for CoA, I assume you are talking about Kara. I used to use CoW until our tank picked up imp. Demo Shout, now I use CoE if there are 2 or more mages or CoA if there is 1 or less. I usually don't have a shadow priest in my Kara group.

Gumibear · 03/19/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Draele

1- Firstly, and most importantly, this isn't Molten Core! Fights since BWL have been getting progressively less "tank and spank" and from what I've seen this trend isn't going away. Thus, the ability to load out direct damage spells .5 seconds faster loses much of it's appeal when you have DoTs ticking round the clock. Bane isn't as much of a %DPS boost as one might find on paper when you're working with Line-of-sight, add control, movement and other varieties of gimmicks in the dynamic encounters we've been getting the past year.

I see a huge problem with the logic of this statement. If the fight requires you to move quickly, you want your spells to cast faster so you're casting more of them before you have to move. Someone with Bane will outdamge someone without Bane in the example you're using here because the person with Bane can pull off the Shadowbolt before moving that the second person could not.

I want to maximize the number of spells in each window of opportunity for damage on a los-based fight. I want to burst down those Curator adds with some quick bolts, not some dots.

Originally Posted by Twid

I'm curious what dps cycles people are using as affliction. In order to maximize DoT efficiency, is there a specific cycle that allows for DoTs to be reapplied the instant the last tick fires?

I could see bane not being essential if the difference in cast time did not grant a full extra bolt without sacrificing the cycles of the DoTs.

I guess if you figure a cycle of UA, SL, CoA, Corr, you have 6.5 seconds of global cooldown, and another 1.5 if you life tap or dark pact. That leaves you with 10 seconds before the UA expires. If you want to time it so your UA is applied the instant it fades, you have to start casting just under 2 seconds from the end of the DoT. This would put you at 8 seconds of shadowbolt spam time. You would have enough time for three talented shadowbolts, that consume 7.5 seconds, or 2 untalented shadowbolts that consume 6 seconds..

On a boss, if you're not assigned to a utility curse, you should consider using Doom instead of Agony. Agony will do more damage than just Doom over the same time period, but Doom takes less than half the casting time (2.5 GCDs vs. 1). The difference in GCDs used almost allows for another Shadowbolt, so after considering the extra SB damage in addition to Doom's damage, the use of Doom comes out ahead for DPS.

1.5 * (2.5-1) = 2.25 seconds saved from using Doom instead of Agony in a minute. Agony is slightly easier to model over 2 minutes than 1 since in 2 minutes, you get an integer number of CoAs, so I'll assume a 2 minute window during which you'd get 5 Agony vs. 2 Doom. Using Doom over this 2 minute window gives you 4.5 extra seconds to cast Shadowbolts.

Curse of Doom (plus the extra SB damage):
2(4200 base + 1000 damage * 2.0 coefficent) + (4.5/2.5)(572 base + 1000 damage * 0.857 coefficient) = 12400 + 2572.2 = 14972.2
Multiply by 1.1 for SM and you'll get 16469.42

Curse of Agony
5(1356 + 1000 * 1.2) = 12780
Multiply by 1.15 for SM + Contagion = 14697
Multiply by 1.25 for SM + Contagion + Imp CoA = 15975

So there's a bit of a difference in damage done in favor of CoD even with Imp CoA, and this is before considering the crit chance of your shadowbolts and Imp SB procs. I have a feeling Imp SB procs increase the gap in CoD's favor, but that's a calculation I feel is beyond my ability to model. Also Amplify Curse adds more to Doom than Agony, as it's 50% of the base of a CoD vs. 50% of the base of a CoA.

PS: I realize 4.5 seconds saved doesn't really allow for an exact number of shadowbolts, but if you double this time frame to 4 minutes, you'll get 3 extra Shadowbolts and an extra global cooldown using CoD instead of CoA. Every little bit helps.

spronk · 03/19/07, 2:43 PM

IMO Warlocks make the mistake of assuming 5 mans, heroics, karazhan, and 25 man raids all require the same spec.

Regular 5 mans - whatever you want, any build works great.

Heroics - CC, burst DPS is important. Affliction is ok, but not great since you cant dot multi-mobs most of the time. Burst DPS is also lacking, and some bosses you really don't want to leave DOTs on. Destro is great, shadowfury is nice as a lifesaver sometimes (mages have the same issue btw, ice is really nice with ice block/imp blizzard/etc for heroics). Not really sure about demo, don't see the felguard surviving long frankly.

Karazhan - Demo isn't bad here, some bosses can't have pets out DPSing but most are ok. Affliction and destro are very good here too. If you have a spriest, affliction is great, with fire mages destro is better.

25 man raids - You pretty much should have a shadow priest now, your guild is not very smart trying 25 man raids without at least one that is geared. Once you get to the point where you are only doing 25 man raids, some variation of 41/0/20 is the best build.

I am currently 7/5/49 which allows me to go sbolt when grouped with shadow priests or immo/incin/conflag when grouped with fire mages. I'll respec to 41/0/20 once I've hit exalted with everyone, don't find myself running heroics at all, and the guild gets into a more dedicated 25 man raiding schedule. FWIW I've also juggled sets of gear, I have a very crit heavy (~900 dmg, 22% crit unbuffed) gear load out at the moment, but have in the bank certain pieces that would lower crit but up +dmg when I respec.

PVP - having the most trouble here, in 2v2 or 3v3 affliction or demo works great. In 5v5 no build really works well, good teams train onto the warlock and we die very, very, very fast.

Antoine · 03/19/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gumibear

I see a huge problem with the logic of this statement. If the fight requires you to move quickly, you want your spells to cast faster so you're casting more of them before you have to move. Someone with Bane will outdamge someone without Bane in the example you're using here because the person with Bane can pull off the Shadowbolt before moving that the second person could not.

I want to maximize the number of spells in each window of opportunity for damage on a los-based fight. I want to burst down those Curator adds with some quick bolts, not some dots.

On a boss, if you're not assigned to a utility curse, you should consider using Doom instead of Agony. Agony will do more damage than just Doom over the same time period, but Doom takes less than half the casting time (2.5 GCDs vs. 1). The difference in GCDs used almost allows for another Shadowbolt, so after considering the extra SB damage in addition to Doom's damage, the use of Doom comes out ahead for DPS.

1.5 * (2.5-1) = 2.25 seconds saved from using Doom instead of Agony in a minute. Agony is slightly easier to model over 2 minutes than 1 since in 2 minutes, you get an integer number of CoAs, so I'll assume a 2 minute window during which you'd get 5 Agony vs. 2 Doom. Using Doom over this 2 minute window gives you 4.5 extra seconds to cast Shadowbolts.

Curse of Doom (plus the extra SB damage):
2(4200 base + 1000 damage * 2.0 coefficent) + (4.5/2.5)(572 base + 1000 damage * 0.857 coefficient) = 12400 + 2572.2 = 14972.2
Multiply by 1.1 for SM and you'll get 16469.42

Curse of Agony
5(1356 + 1000 * 1.2) = 12780
Multiply by 1.15 for SM + Contagion = 14697
Multiply by 1.25 for SM + Contagion + Imp CoA = 15975

So there's a bit of a difference in damage done in favor of CoD even with Imp CoA, and this is before considering the crit chance of your shadowbolts and Imp SB procs. I have a feeling Imp SB procs increase the gap in CoD's favor, but that's a calculation I feel is beyond my ability to model. Also Amplify Curse adds more to Doom than Agony, as it's 50% of the base of a CoD vs. 50% of the base of a CoA.

PS: I realize 4.5 seconds saved doesn't really allow for an exact number of shadowbolts, but if you double this time frame to 4 minutes, you'll 3 Shadowbolt and an extra global cooldown. Every little bit helps.

The only thing I would say about this is that Doom can pull way ahead if it has certain debuffs up when it goes off, but Agony can do more damage. You're more likely to have an on-use trinket up when you put up Agony. You're more likely to have ISB up when Agony ticks. With just 1 warlock, I'd go so far as to say that Agony would do more DPS, but if you get ISB up more reliably Doom will be better.

Mearis · 03/19/07, 2:56 PM

You're more likely to have ISB up when Agony ticks.

Why?

Antoine · 03/19/07, 2:58 PM

With refreshing DoTs and the RNG, even a 20% pre-devastation crit rate is not good enough to guarantee ISB up at all times. With Doom, either it's up or it isn't, but you can have some Agony ticks benefit and some not.

Mearis · 03/19/07, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Antoine

With refreshing DoTs and the RNG, even a 20% pre-devastation crit rate is not good enough to guarantee ISB up at all times. With Doom, either it's up or it isn't, but you can have some Agony ticks benefit and some not.

Over a large enough period, CoD and CoA will get exactly the same benefit from ISB, CoD moreso actually, given that CoD gives you slightly more time to cast shadowbolts given that you use up fewer cooldowns refreshing CoA.

Antoine · 03/19/07, 3:01 PM

Maybe the math works out that way, and maybe I need a larger sample size, but my tests on Dr. Boom yesterday yielded better results for CoA than CoD for me.

Gumibear · 03/19/07, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Antoine

You're more likely to have an on-use trinket up when you put up Agony. You're more likely to have ISB up when Agony ticks. With just 1 warlock, I'd go so far as to say that Agony would do more DPS, but if you get ISB up more reliably Doom will be better.

How does the on-use trinket benefit CoA more? The best one I can think of is Icon of the Silver Crescent, which is a 2 minute cooldown. You could use it every other Doom, and its bonus is being multiplied by 2 on a Doom cast instead of 1.2 on an Agony cast.

And if you have just 1 Warlock, you're most likely not in a position to use CoA or CoD anyway.

• frmorrison · 03/19/07, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Antoine

Maybe the math works out that way, and maybe I need a larger sample size, but my tests on Dr. Boom yesterday yielded better results for CoA than CoD for me.

It depends on spec. If you have amp curse and 10% shadow damage, Doom should win.

If not, CoA is likely better.

doogless · 03/19/07, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Antoine

Maybe the math works out that way, and maybe I need a larger sample size, but my tests on Dr. Boom yesterday yielded better results for CoA than CoD for me.

sample size is entirely it, they should have equal benefit from ISB. in 60 seconds agony ticks 30 times, doom ticks 1 time - hence why you weren't seeing it.

also, regarding dps of sbolt vs drain (since I screwed up on the spell damage coefficient before)
900 shadow => 643 added over the duration of the drain (damage * (5 / 3.5) / 2)
540 base damage
10% from shadow mastery, 60% from full soul siphon
(643 + 540) * 1.1 * 1.6 = 2082 damage over 5 seconds
shadow bolt at 2484 damage (over the same 5 seconds) without bane is still more damage, and becomes even more when both bane and ISB are added in.

Zoner · 03/19/07, 6:46 PM

My own spreadsheet puts a deep Affliction build (w/ 1100 ish spell damage) at 838 dps without bane, and 899 dps with Bane.

A 7.27% dps increase.

The time shaved off all the immolate cast times translates pretty much directly into the number of additional lifetaps you need to perform to offset the increased mana cost of the extra shadowbolts.

Vigor · 03/21/07, 6:09 AM

Also, you would want to consider spell haste effects, even if there arent that many yet.
Having Bloodlust/Heroism and things like Quags eye is awesome for increase in dps on bolting. Bloodlust also lowers GCD.

I just respecced from a 40/0/21 to 42/0/19, and i like it alot better. In my opinion it is better to have intensity, dest. reach and devestation instead of getting that extra stamina. Having ISB up is awesome. I am sitting on around 16% crit without devestation, while other locks in my guild have 10%, and do not have devestation. I have my ISB up alot compared to them.

Drain Life is good many times though, when there is encounters ala vael where you take damage all the time!

I find Bane to be a better choice for myself atleast

roXet · 03/21/07, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Antoine

The only thing I would say about this is that Doom can pull way ahead if it has certain debuffs up when it goes off, but Agony can do more damage. You're more likely to have an on-use trinket up when you put up Agony. You're more likely to have ISB up when Agony ticks. With just 1 warlock, I'd go so far as to say that Agony would do more DPS, but if you get ISB up more reliably Doom will be better.

I have been wondering, exctally how do the on-use trinkets affect dots? When does the increase in spell damage take effect? Only when the spell is cast? Or can you modify the amount of damage after the dots are already applied?

TheOnly · 03/21/07, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by roXet

I have been wondering, exctally how do the on-use trinkets affect dots? When does the increase in spell damage take effect? Only when the spell is cast? Or can you modify the amount of damage after the dots are already applied?

Your spell damage at the time of the cast.

About a year go, it was spell damage at the time of the tick, but they changed it.