[Shaman] Beyond Karazhan: raid spec? - Page 3

♦ Maniq · 03/18/07, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by mek

Enhancement shamans also have very low int and a very small amount of "spare" mana to use between shamanistic rage timers.

It's clear to me that except in extreme situations, enhancement shamans casting heal spells are gimping themselves.

Wait, what?

I agree with most of your post but, in all honesty, the two parts of it I have quoted are part of what is wrong with how non-resto shamans are slotted into the raiding environment.

Raid buffed, I have 9.6k mana and I very very rarely hurt for mana, even between SR timers, ok, my 3.5k heals won't keep a tank up, but it will damn sure make some difference, be it a one off, or topping up the melee DPS with chain heal.

We are damn well not "rogues with totems" and if you act like you are, "you are fucking up".

Part of the problem with how enhancement and, to a lesser extent, elemental shaman are perceieved, is that we have somehow lost what makes us unique, we are hybrids, we can (now) DPS, but we can also not concentrate on DPS alone, we have the ability to heal, and even if it is just a quick heal, that will land before one of specced healers land it, it's role is still very important.

I don't feel "gimped" at all by throwing heals out while DPSing, I know I'm not going to be able to solo heal a tank for very long, but with the ability to top DMs and to throw out some potentially saving heals, I feel that the, subset of shamans for who DPS is everything(regardless of spec) are just not plaing the class well.

♦ Praetorian · 03/18/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Friedrich

Fine, that's true. But I'd like to emphasize that given a gear swap, a 41 elemental is just as bad (or good) at healing as a 41 enhancement is. Neither build gets purification or healing way, or imp chain heal or nature's blessing, for that matter. And I don't think that enhancement shaman are any less valuable to the raid as a result, since enhancement buffs their group to a greater extent than an elemental buffs theirs.

Elemental shamans have a huge mp5 advantage over enhancement when called upon to wear pure healing gear and just heal. But anyway, as Maniq said, obviously enhancement brings more to the table than just DPS. Quick spot heals are still very much helpful. An enhancement shaman in a Gruul melee DPS group can quickly patch anyone in his melee group who is critically low after a shatter, or after a bad cave-in, until the full-time healers can get to them and fix the rest of the damage.

Anyway, elemental shamans likely will end up doing more damage enhancement shamans unless more changes are made. But, enhancement shamans add more to their group than elemental shamans, so if you're looking at it in terms of raid DPS, it's not at all clear-cut.

Durnitol · 03/18/07, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Maniq

Wait, what?

I agree with most of your post but, in all honesty, the two parts of it I have quoted are part of what is wrong with how non-resto shamans are slotted into the raiding environment.

Raid buffed, I have 9.6k mana and I very very rarely hurt for mana, even between SR timers, ok, my 3.5k heals won't keep a tank up, but it will damn sure make some difference, be it a one off, or topping up the melee DPS with chain heal.

We are damn well not "rogues with totems" and if you act like you are, "you are fucking up".

Part of the problem with how enhancement and, to a lesser extent, elemental shaman are perceieved, is that we have somehow lost what makes us unique, we are hybrids, we can (now) DPS, but we can also not concentrate on DPS alone, we have the ability to heal, and even if it is just a quick heal, that will land before one of specced healers land it, it's role is still very important.

I don't feel "gimped" at all by throwing heals out while DPSing, I know I'm not going to be able to solo heal a tank for very long, but with the ability to top DMs and to throw out some potentially saving heals, I feel that the, subset of shamans for who DPS is everything(regardless of spec) are just not plaing the class well.

How is that 75 hit rating doing for you? You'll have to excuse me, but I haven't done Gruul, Magtheridon, or Serpentshrine at all. Hell, I haven't even finished Karazhan, so I havent been able to acquire any experience of that level of gear. However, it would appear that you have garnered that 9k raid buffed mana from sacrificing hit rating, and a lot of it. Do you just ignore your offhand? A Blackout Truncheon may boost your haste rating and all, but has it proven that much better than a slow offhand? My current gear puts me at 5200 mana with similar crit and AP to you, but 70 more hit rating. Does 9k mana improve your DPS at all on those fights I haven't been to? I think I could have used about 2k more mana on Prince, for example, to get those extra earthshocks in, it would still seem like 75 hit rating is incredibly low. Is all the theorycrafting about hit rating wrong?

As for the gear swap comment, yes, we CAN heal. On fights where we CAN'T dps as enhancement for whatever reason, we can slap on the heal gear and fake our way through 9k mana. For elemental, no gear swap required. If the mob is just immune to Nature constantly, then yeah, maybe I'd throw on the heal gear. Perhaps I was too hasty in my comment.

♦ Maniq · 03/18/07, 12:22 PM

I have sacrificed a lot of hit rating for other stats, because, ultimatley, this makes me a lot more use to the raids / groups I am with than someone who is all about pure DPS. Shaman can't CC, but we can heal, we can bring a great deal more to a group that DPS alone.

Durnitol, I see from your armory profile that you are sacrificing quite a bit of armor by wearing leather, is the extra hit rating really worth it?

I'm consistently one of the highest in DMs, in fact, last night on Magtheridon I was top on pretty much all the attempts, whilst saving even more mana for interupts.

I really like the haste proc build I'm using at the moment, the procs all stack, combined with flurry and when up, bloodlust, I can get down to a combo of 1.1 and 0.5 speed weapons, which, I think makes up for the slightly lower DPS offhand, I've done some experimentation with a slower offhand, but, before the WF changes get in, I've found this to be optimal.

I like having enough mana, so that I can DPS as hard as the aggro limit will allow, but retaining enough mana, to be able to heal, at least reasonably well on a pull, be it on a heroic, or on pulls where there is a whole bunch of damage going round, for example on the new Kazzak, I can go all out pretty much, he enrages and keep up with chain healing, then pop SR/Abacus and get 6k mana back, without really skipping a beat.

Also, another example, the other day in Heroic slave pens, our healer died on the pull, I was able to heal for the rest of the pack, ok, I had to pop a super mana pot, but, things like that are why I'm willing to sacrifice some DPS, because a) it saves me gold and b) I offer a lot more utility.

Sure, I could sacrifice a whole bunch of int and regen and stack +hit, but really, I can't see that is a shamans role. I see an enhancement shaman as doing good DPS, buffing other classes so they can perform better and being able to toss heals about without sacrificing too much. I'm confident that is the way we should be taking the class.

We have so many more dimensions than just DPSing for all it's worth, so I think we should use them.

Plea · 03/18/07, 12:26 PM

As always, whenever the hit skill is involved, people tend to overrate it. For a 2h setup, anything over 5% hit is a waste; however, for dual wield it keeps increasing your white damage, its not totally useless. But, 'not totally useless' does not necessarily mean 'its a must'. It is a good stat, but not what you imagine at first glance.

That sounds like dw warriors. A warrior in pure dps gear cannot tank, he just cant. Putting a few hybrid gear, he will be able to tank some light damage. A shaman should be similar, some hybrid gear and he will be able to heal better. Difference is, a dps warrior isnt supposed to tank any damage any time, this might not be the same for a shaman. Of course, this is from a warrior's eyes, im no shaman expert.

♦ Praetorian · 03/18/07, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Maniq

Sure, I could sacrifice a whole bunch of int and regen and stack +hit, but really, I can't see that is a shamans role. I see an enhancement shaman as doing good DPS, buffing other classes so they can perform better and being able to toss heals about without sacrificing too much. I'm confident that is the way we should be taking the class.

We have so many more dimensions than just DPSing for all it's worth, so I think we should use them.

<3

Best shaman.

mavfin · 03/18/07, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

<3

Best shaman.

Well, my shaman is elemental, 37/0/24 (no overload, no Wrath, add NS/Healing Way). The way I play, no, I won't beat the mages, unless there's *absolutely no* healing/patching to be done, and for whatever reason I don't need to drop totems. I'm always going to be having some of my attention on watching for places I could help other than *my* damage, unless the RL tells me to completely ignore it.

I think a shaman's contribution should always be looked at as their personal contribution plus what their totems did for the group. Nothing else even makes sense for them to *be* in a 25-man group. Now, given notice pre-fight, enhancement and elemental shamans can both put on healing gear and heal for a boss fight. However, if both start a fight in their damage gear, and then stuff happens, the elemental can obviously heal more/better with their dam/heal gear, than the enhancement can do in their melee gear. So that's kind of a wash, really. Depends on what you're looking for. The enhancement will buff up your melee more, while the elemental can be more flexible on no-notice healing.

Still comes down to what you need, and how min/maxed your raid/guild is.

Myul · 03/18/07, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Miaxi

...what? I think you are confused. Nobody ever claimed Sulliwan was the MT and, frankly, bear form damage has never been THAT overpowered.

I'm just wondering about THAT numbers. Ok cats have cowl, but what does a shaman have? Plus the bug with unleashed rage.

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Elemental shamans have a huge mp5 advantage over enhancement when called upon to wear pure healing gear and just heal.

Crush the numbers, think about how many points a dps claimed shaman might have in unrelenting storm, thats often not that much.

If you want ToW & the maximum critchance of tidal mastery you might have to put only 2-3 points in this talent. 4%-6% of your total intellect. Not everyone is playing with 600 int raidbuffed, so its a range of about 400 till 600 int with 4% till 10% regen from the talent.

Of course, when you are willing to drop storm reach, elemental precision or lightning mastery instead..

As i allready said one page before, dual wielding a second healer mace should bringt both speccs at least on par while comparing them watching in healing gear.

Originally Posted by mavfin

Well, my shaman is elemental, 37/0/24 (no overload, no Wrath, add NS/Healing Way). The way I play, no, I won't beat the mages, unless there's *absolutely no* healing/patching to be done, and for whatever reason I don't need to drop totems. I'm always going to be having some of my attention on watching for places I could help other than *my* damage, unless the RL tells me to completely ignore it.

I've got a different experience from that. During short battles:

(top geared) Ele
Top Caster
Oomkin
Worse Caster

is our ranking, and just think about how much the ele shaman add on top to the other classes. But that may only work if you are willing to spend a shadow priest as second pusher with the shaman to a group and won't split them up for two. Without a shadowpriest his burning of mana per second without much regen will make him standing around naked soon.

Our wonderfull advantage over the other damage dealing hybrid is, we don't have to shift out, toss a heal, shift back and have spend over 5 seconds and a bunch of mana for this. We can heal at any time we want to and if you tend so push your manapool a little bit like eg Maniq told us you can still do decent dps while do a second thing, beeing a very handable backup hybrid as you really was intended to be.

• Relwin · 03/18/07, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Maniq

words words words

Your training is now complete.

missiletoad · 03/18/07, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Myul

Crush the numbers, think about how many points a dps claimed shaman might have in unrelenting storm, thats often not that much.

I've yet to speak to any PvEing elemental shaman without at least 4/5 Unrelenting Storm. Surely they exist, but with no longevity-boosting ability like other casters have, even with the new Clearcast change an additional 40+ mana/5 is extremely attractive. Long boss fights are still the elemental shaman's weakness and passive regen goes a long way to combat that. In my experience it is Storm Reach which is often the talent of that tier which is passed by.

Myul · 03/18/07, 7:28 PM

Letting you getting melted by allmost every "real" aoe with 30y range. Of couse this talent seems quite nice but at least you might only lose (assuming 3 points at regular pve specc, so missing 4%) 16 (400 int) to 24 mp5.
That's even with be bigger int one more lb per minute, not more, not less. Won't let me getting crazy, of course in 10 minutes fight its quite nice doing roughly 25.000 more dmg (assuming 35% crit, 1000 dmg and 5 clearcasts at all or 40 dps). But is it worse losing your range? You may heal targets at 40y, totems range is 30y und with storm reach you can move between this ranges and outpass allmost every regular aoe. I prefer this, but that's just my favorite choice.

Juice · 03/18/07, 8:10 PM

I've got to find some way to boost my MP5, but the prospects look grim. My best MP5 loading puts me about about 50mp5 while casting. Add another 30 from the mana totem, and my net 80MP5 in staggers against my 811 MP5 out while chain casting lightning bolt. I'm winchester mana in 49.3 seconds.
MP5 in = 80
MP5 out = 891

Specing 5 points in Unrelenting storm, I snag another ~34 mp5. That's nearly a 50% buff in my MP5 on the field, but what's the real impact? If I forgo totem of wrath and subtract the +3% crit from my clearcast procs, the following nets:
MP5 in = 114
MP5 out = 920.7
This results in a net +5 MP5 from my above situation. I still run dry in under 50 seconds of chain LB fire - no net improvement.

Now, there is significant improvment in recovery time between the two specs (279 seconds vs. 226 seconds to full mana) when not casting. However, I was hoping for something more significant. Clearcast's improvements make moving points from Tidal Mastery or Totem of Wrath into Unrelenting storm somewhat of a mixed bag.

Am I calculating something wrong?

Edit: I haven't included the loss of casts associated with Lightning Overload, as I'm not sure it's really a 5% proc rate (seems more like 1-2%, but I haven't parsed it).

Myul · 03/18/07, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by Juice

MP5 in = 80
MP5 out = 891

Just recheck your regenstats please, this should have been with innervate or while sitting and drinking.

for 891 manareg out of combat with 80ish mp5 you need about:

891-80=811 Manareg from spirit per 5 seconds without your mp5
811/2.5=324,4 Manareg from spirit per tick (2 seconds) without your mp5
324,4-17=307,4 (spirit/5 + 17 for shaman)
307,4*5=1537 overall spirit is needed for this manareg per tick, i assume even with all avaible consumeables and beeing a human priest with spirit tab you won't hardly scratch this value ever

RK · 03/18/07, 9:30 PM

It had slipped my mind that ToW would also = improved personal mana longevity now. I guess that makes it ever so slightly more attractive, but again... healing way and NS and maxing out storm's reach and Unrelenting Storm.

As far as MP5 goes, I suggest that you invest in some gear that has it. I suppose I'm fortunate that as a LW the netherstrike set is extremely well balanced (other than the +agi socket bonus which suggests that someone temporarily forgot they weren't making hunter mail!) between crit, spell damage and mp5. Similarly, I suggest stuff like 6 mana/5 for bracers instead of 15 spell damage. There's no prizes for topping the damage meters for 45 seconds only; there are prizes for sustaining 3rd-4th the whole way through and still having mana for party buffs or emergency heals. With unrelenting storm and unbuffed, I believe I currently have 92 mana/5.

Also, do your calculations at least with the standard buffs in place (e.g. AI, MOTW, mana spring... should be at least close to being able to count BoWisdom standard too!).

Anything that extends your effective mana pool gives you longer for mp5 effects to operate before you go dry, which extends your effective mana pool, which gives you longer etc. I have IIRC 92 mana/5 before buffs. After AI and MOTW (which increase unrelenting storm) and mana spring, that's what, 125/5?

Similarly, be prepared to at least take some major/unstable/combat mana pots if not supers, same effect. Mages don't ignore mana gems and evocation when calculating their longevity, you know. I expect to take a major mana minimum on any long raid fight if I'm healing, and same for DPS.

Edit: Ya for the armory, I sticky-beaked at your gear to work out how you could go OOM so fast. It's a combination of two things: no relenting storm and minimal mp/5 gear = 37 base mana/5. And you have a 10.x crit% before talents. Elemental DPS is highly gear dependent because lightning bolt is the best scaling nuke in the game due to Lightning Mastery, and to be blunt: the gear that shows for you on the armory is largely crap, aside from a couple of Kara pieces. So yeah: take at least 4/5 unrelenting storm and at least 1/2 storm's reach, take all of tidal mastery, and do calculations about how fast you go out of mana only after you re-spec and get serious gear, really. I'm sitting somewhere around 650 nature damage (plus totem of the void for an extra 55 on lightning spells), 20%+ spell crit before talents and 92 mana/5 base (and two very nice trinkets). The difference compared to even a couple of weeks ago (with about 500 dmg and 16% spell crit base) is staggering.

Miaxi · 03/18/07, 10:29 PM

I'm just wondering about THAT numbers. Ok cats have cowl, but what does a shaman have? Plus the bug with unleashed rage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowl o.0??

As i allready said one page before, dual wielding a second healer mace should bringt both speccs at least on par while comparing them watching in healing gear.

You want to dual-wield "main hand" flagged weapon types?

Your whole argument makes no sense to me, I won't quote more to avoid sounding offensive but it all just makes me go "huh?".

As far as MP5 goes, I suggest that you invest in some gear that has it. I suppose I'm fortunate that as a LW the netherstrike set is extremely well balanced (other than the +agi socket bonus which suggests that someone temporarily forgot they weren't making hunter mail!) between crit, spell damage and mp5. Similarly, I suggest stuff like 6 mana/5 for bracers instead of 15 spell damage. There's no prizes for topping the damage meters for 45 seconds only; there are prizes for sustaining 3rd-4th the whole way through and still having mana for party buffs or emergency heals. With unrelenting storm and unbuffed, I believe I currently have 92 mana/5.

You don't need to invest specifically into mp/5 gear. Our set items already have significant amounts, rather make sure your lightning crit is above 30%.