◊ Kalman

Except that Crusader is scaled lower at 70 than Mongoose, and Mongoose gives crit as well as AP.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

• Scheme

It's not really any different than the situation rogues were in prior to TBC. Dual Crusader got us 200 AP. It gave warriors 400. Now we have Mongoose which gives us 240 AP and 6% crit. Warriors would get ~11% crit (their agi:crit ratio at 70 is ~22:1, right?), but no AP. Clearly better for rogues, but Crusader was clearly better for warriors.

 

Russta

It's 33:1

 

• Scheme

Mm, that sticky in the official warrior forums needs to be corrected, then. =/

 

Hozz

Agree but that makes it ok to nerf Crusader and not add an upgrade? Crusader was that overpowered?

 

Cel

I'm no warrior but I'd wager they're afraid of the fury dps monopoly there used to be. 8% or however much crit mongoose is for warriors would still work well for fury, given the increased chance to proc flurry, but would keep from making stupidly powerful Bloodthirsts fire off after a double proc, assuming they upgraded to Crusader 2 with more strength.

Let's say 125 strengthx2, 500AP (+10% from talents?) + 270AP from a Bloodlust Trinket would make for some crazy Bloodthirsts. That's getting 840ish AP just from a trinket and 2 enchants. This is very proc reliant, which is well... not reliable.


Then again they seem to have no problem with mages blowing arcane power + trinket of choice, so take that how you will. Plate vs. Cloth? :P

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

◊ Kalman

Fury warriors were that overpowered. One way to balance classes without actively nerfing something is by simply failing to provide an upgrade.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

◊ Bekah

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/82238332.htm

=)

 

sp00n

Great news.

Now I'm actually thinking about spending that 900 gold for the enchant.

Item Ranking Rogue [horribly outdated]

 

Morsexy

22.1 is our crit rating number to equal 1% crit.

I can tell you that tanking with this on my Kings Defender, when it procs not only does my TPS go up quite a bit, but I consistantly see 2-3 strings of yellow crits and some nice dodge strings.

 

dukes

He said agi:crit, not crit rating:crit. Crit rating:crit is the same for every class I believe, while the agi:crit ratio changes per-class.

 

Insect

I've been throwing Mongoose on all my tanking swords but givin the possible aggro from battle master proc and the healing which was way more than I expected i'd like to see a well put together comparison of battlmaster and mongoose for tanking. Mongoose probably still wins but it would be interesting, maybe even situational.

 

• koaschten

becoming a little offtopic
dont consider battlemaster for aggro. i did some parsing for our maintank using a latro's with battlemaster and a fish in the offhand on Servants @ blasted lands.

combat log: http://www.koaschten.de/wow/Battlema..._hourglass.txt

result was 1.751 hits, 623 crits, 0 miss, 0 parries, 0 dodge, 43 Battlemaster procs.
-> 2374 swings, all landed
=> 1.81 % proc rate for 180-300 grp heal.
which mostly is overheal as the mt is often the only taking dmg in the mt grp and therefor is no threat-gain

wild guess, fiery weapon or life-steal might be better.
mongoose for mitigation fights.
anything but battlemaster for aggro-sensitive fights

 

Sebila

Personally I don't know if I should put it on my Thunderfury or on the King's Defender that I just got?

Seems to me that I should open a fight with TF for more threat and maybe on long ones, where aggro is not an issue switch to KD....So shall I put it on TF?

Just started Gruul's btw and act as MT/OT.

What do you guys think?

PS

Sorry I tried to ask this question in another threat, but then it was closed and earlier on a search for mongoose returned nothing for me.

 

• zepi

Why would you put it on TF? Isn't kings defender better both aggro and mitigation wise after the TF nerf?

 

Sebila

Nope, I think TF > KD for aggro and also TC is easier resisted by bosses (such as Prince maybe?). Hence my point to start a fight with TF and switch on long fights or where aggro is not an issue to KD...Albeit I just got KD, haven't tanked any boss (in Kara nor Gruul) with it yet; hence my question for the experts here...

Also after already spending about 200g to put +15 agil on KD, now I am trying to think mongoose a little bit more carefully lol

/bow

 

Sebila

Back to the original question please, what would you do? Put mongoose on KD as the original impulse was, or on TF as MT from top guilds seem to still prefer TF>KD for aggro (at least to open fights)?

Thanks a bunch!

(I am at the verge of just returning the damn crystals to the guild bank)

 

Andrise

Put mongoose on King's defender. Even if for whatever reaosn you want to start a fight with TF, you're probably not going to be using it long enough to depend on mongoose proccing. And King's Defender is what you should be using most of the time, so just put Mongoose on it and stop worrying.

 

Sebila

Thanks, but do you have both?

'Cause I talked to an MT from the top ranked guild on my server (and well ranked by worldofraids) and he would start with TF for more threat then switch to KD on long fights or on fights where aggro is not an issue...

Mongoose proccesses at least once a minute right? Were I to establish aggro with TF, I might keep it for at least a couple of minutes (don't know when that senior tank and guild leader would switch though and myself just got KD and haven't practically used it on raid bosses).

 

IceBox

In shorter fights TF usually produces more threat with it's proc than other weapons with higher dps.
When we finally got an KD *sigh* I'll take a look at the threatmeter values if the TF proc is > KD white damage threat.
KD also gives more rage but on most bosses you don't really need more rage imo.
Switching KD in after building up aggro could be a quite good way to go so your dps can start earlier due bonus threat from TF procs.
As said, I'll take a look when we got a KD ^^

 

Sebila

Ty Iceman Err box! You think out of the box and are not square at all...j/k
Ty for the answer!

A couple of questions, what do you tank?

'Cause I asked a very senior tank that is in Maga and does have both TF and KD and tanks in mitigation gear (less STA then me, but more mitigation) and he told me to put mongoose on TF. He is also the one that typically starts with TF and switches to KD on long fights, or when aggro is not an issue....

I also did get Vindicator(someone told me to slap mongoose on that one) and kinda shelved it, besides isn't devastate better served by faster weapons?

I also heard an opinion about KD having basic tanking stats and needing a boost, but is TF starved for rage, since it generates rage at the rate of it's base DPS (as a 59 weapon)? So maybe the mongoose proc would give it that extra kick? Hmm, that's why that rich senior tank/guild leader has mongoos on both, I guess...

I did slap +15 agil w/o even thinking on both TF and on the newly aquired KD (waste of money were I to replace it now with mongoose now)...

I also have kinda of a funny build 10/5/46 with points in 1h specialization, focused rage, 2/3 imp hs, imp sunder (and none in shield mastery nor in imp defensive stance), b/c I also try to hit harder (for dps, including when levelling as prot or farming on my only char); also picked up imp 3/3 TC and use it with TF (and like I bragged above, based on observations of mine and others, I generate more threat and out live/mitigate all the tanks I raid with, even when I was in T2 and they in T3).

And thanks for the reminder about threatmeter, going to do more of that ASAP (but it has to be same scenario, etc; I think TF>KD for threat, so far).

 

IceBox

I don't really tank anymore but we, the warriors in our group, usually sit together and try to look which is the best way to tank the encounters. I tanked from MC to Naxx nearly every boss once :>
Though I don't tank I still speak with our maintanks about new bosses like Gruul and now the first few of Serpentshrine and we work out some "how-to's", speak about gems and other equipment themes so I stay up to date ^^

After discussing it with our MT's we came up with the following

If the encounter is aggro sensitive but not a nuker -> Go for Thunderfury
No need to apply TC and no need for more life/mitigation, easier to build up aggro in the beginning of the fight, dps can nuke earlier

If the encounter isn't aggro sensitive and not a nuker -> Go for King's Defender
You'll have to apply TC and the addition mitigation helps to make your healers an easy life.
A classic offtank scenario imo

If the encounter is aggro sensitive and a nuker -> Start with Thunderfury, swap in King's Defender after a while
No need to apply TC in the beginning of the fight, less mitigation/hp so don't forget that Black Label, after pushing your threat with TF you can swap in King's Defender when your threat buffer is large enough to add some stamina and armor.
Gruul is a nice example for this imo, start with Thunderfury so your DPS can push a bit earlier and a bit more then swap in KD when you need all the hp and armor to survive as long as you can.

What I still don't know is does KD make more threat over time through "white threat" than TF with it's proc. Last percentage I remember was about 39% threat off white damage on Illhoof with TF, SS and Devastate Spam. We looked at it cause one of our tanks said that white damage doesn't make that much of overall threat. So if 40% are just from your weapon what would a 20dps increase make out?

Back to the mongoose topic ^^

Depending on the proc rate of mongoose I think it's the best tank enchant atm. every proc adds dodge, crit and even 240 armor and it proc's quite often and it also pushes your threat production. For the DPS side I still think it's a bit expensive (for warriors) and I didn't have much problems to push my crit rating over 40% in raids so I took 2x20 Strength over Mongoose. I'm currently playing arena so I didn't play fury, if there are still some void shards laying around when I "come back" I'll try it too :>

 

Dots

Mongoose is the best tank enchant in my opinion, it really procs a lot while tanking
Are you somehow assuming that TC is a bad threat move at the start of a fight? Because it really isn't.

 

Sebila

Thanks a lot!

And in conclusion apply mongoose to which?

Sorry sleepy head, had a bad night and just went and run the test you were curious between TF's proc and KD's white damage?

I used this scenario: tanking gear, farming fire elementals, battle shout active, charge and then alternate between up to 5 sunders and this macro:

/cast [stance:2] Revenge;Defensive Stance
/stopcasting
/cast Shield Block

That would be close to the start of a real boss fight....

It seems that TF was higher by as much as 50 TPS according to KTM in my preliminary test.

/Cheers and again thanks for all the advises!

 

• koaschten