Does increasing +hit decrease the liklihood of Shackle breaking early for a Priest?
The question came about specifically from our experiences shackling Moroes' adds but applies generally.
The +hit stat by its description should increase initial chance to successfully shackle, but what about keeping that target shackled? Has anyone done testing to prove/disprove that adding +hit % helps keep a shackled mob shackled?
Some here have theorized that it does, dubbing it a 'heartbeat resist' type check. If that's the case, then I would expect adding +hit to make a positive difference.
We're going to test this over the next several Moroes attempts by using two priests, one with 0 +hit and one with ~100+hit.
If you know this has already been answered on these forums, please be so kind as to point me there. I did some searching but found only the theories so far.
I'm pretty sure Moroes' buddies are level 70, meaning you should only need enough hit rating to get 3% hit. That may be useful if you're still learning the fight and its going on longer than it should be.
When this issue came up dealing with Rasuvious and his Understudies there were so many opinions being thrown around that I went out and mind controlled even level mobs for an hour or so to prove that %hit made a huge difference with both inital resists and the 'hearbeat' resist checks. You could easily do the same with any level 70 undead.
FWIW I don't wear any %hit gear at Moroes and I keep my shackle planted pretty well with incessant reshackling (every 15 seconds or so). I may be lucky though and would happily recommend a smattering of hit rating if it makes the fight easier.
I'd like someone to collect an assortment of data on early breaks and try to derive an approximation of the heartbeat early break checks for various crowd control spells. That may be a pointless exercise though, most casters now wear plenty or take it through talents and reacting early to a CC break is much easier with the focus system and macros.
%hit help you to plant your shackle correctly, but even a shadow priest's shackle with 8% hit from gear may drop after a few seconds - that's because hit won't let you hold them into your shackle. Simply, but tested out enough at gothik @ 61 mobs. Getting 4% was enough to get your resist chance down to 1% (allways happening during a critical phase, of course!).
3% Hit is needed to reduce your Resistchance to 1% vs mobs of your level, but you need spell penetration for the "will your shackle hold this tick" check. Shackle is a holy spell, so no wl curse may help you, getting 20-60 spell penetration on your gear will do it instead.
Even if you reshackle the mob every 3 seconds there is a low chance they may break out (and there is no dimnishing return, as you could might think, just working like sheep does in pve. I tested this to dead in epl vs lvl 60 mobs few months ago).
%hit help you to plant your shackle correctly, but even a shadow priest's shackle with 8% hit from gear may drop after a few seconds - that's because hit won't let you hold them into your shackle. Simply, but tested out enough at gothik @ 61 mobs. Getting 4% was enough to get your resist chance down to 1% (allways happening during a critical phase, of course!).
3% Hit is needed to reduce your Resistchance to 1% vs mobs of your level, but you need spell penetration for the "will your shackle hold this tick" check. Shackle is a holy spell, so no wl curse may help you, getting 20-60 spell penetration on your gear will do it instead.
Even if you reshackle the mob every 3 seconds there is a low chance they may break out (and there is no dimnishing return, as you could might think, just working like sheep does in pve. I tested this to dead in epl vs lvl 60 mobs few months ago).
You are basically 100% contradicting what I have experienced on my own priest in Naxx and what we experience now in Karazhan.
No spell penetration gear at all. As soon as the priests started wearing Bloodvine sets for +hit our shackles were rock-solid (same goes for the mind-controls).
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I can't for the life of me figure out why people insist on reshackling the mob every 10-15 seconds.
If the mob works with an initial resist check vs spell hit, and then makes the same check at heartbeat intervals, then you gain absolutely nothing by reshackling. You are simply wasting mana. Unless there is some increased chance to break based on the length of the shackle, the hearbeat checks will still continue at the same rate and same resist check before you reshackled.
Because a loose mob usually means death, and waiting for it to break isn't always the best option. Frequent reshackling helps some people keep their mind on the mob instead of getting lost in healing or dpsing until it breaks.
That said, I love my shackle/sheep macro for helping me keep track of my shackle- the twitch reflex instant gained in not having to click on a moving target or even on a bar to change targets to the mob to be cc'd has saved my life more than once. focus is my friend!
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Think of the check on shackles like this, Priest vs 70 mob has a 4% chance per second(Random 100 and hope it's not 1-4 basically) for the shackle to break, with +3% hit gear that 4% chance becomes 1%(Random 100 and hope it's not 1). Same thing applies to MC as well.
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% Hit is needed to reduce your Resistchance to 1% vs mobs of your level, but you need spell penetration for the "will your shackle hold this tick" check. Shackle is a holy spell, so no wl curse may help you, getting 20-60 spell penetration on your gear will do it instead.
This is completely incorrect, and was parsed as being useless a long time ago.
I know I sound like an angel of doom whenevr it's mentioned, but everyone needs to understand this : spell penetration is a completely worthless stat in PvE. Just get it off your gear. There's no reason to wear it.
I can't for the life of me figure out why people insist on reshackling the mob every 10-15 seconds.
If the mob works with an initial resist check vs spell hit, and then makes the same check at heartbeat intervals, then you gain absolutely nothing by reshackling. You are simply wasting mana. Unless there is some increased chance to break based on the length of the shackle, the hearbeat checks will still continue at the same rate and same resist check before you reshackled.
Its because a lot of the priests think they will get autoattack -> killed the second it breaks or get yelled at by their raid leader. Its not hard to call for an intervene or something if you get a resist in either case.
So with 3% +hit gear, you essentially have a 1% chance for a shackle to resist upon cast, and a similar chance of breaking on a heartbeat resist. Been looking for that info for a while now.
Emeraude mentioned that MC is exactly the same. Can anyone confirm? 1% chance to break, assuming +3% hit and an equal level mob?
Can anyone suggest some accessible +hit gear for cloth healers?
Last edited by Merple : 03/20/07 at 1:36 PM.
Reason: additional thought
I don't think there was any concrete info on early shackle breaks and MC durations for Raz/Gothik during Naxx. Some people claimed hit was all you needed, some said some small spell penetration, and for MC in particular, some priests swore by Shadow Reach working with MC leash range.
Honestly the best thing you can do is max the appropriate +hit for the initial shackle and then have a backup plan or quick players to deal with early shackle breaks.
I can't for the life of me figure out why people insist on reshackling the mob every 10-15 seconds.
If the mob works with an initial resist check vs spell hit, and then makes the same check at heartbeat intervals, then you gain absolutely nothing by reshackling. You are simply wasting mana. Unless there is some increased chance to break based on the length of the shackle, the hearbeat checks will still continue at the same rate and same resist check before you reshackled.
Because if you have frequent enough breaks, then there's a good chance a break will occur as you're casting, which reduces the amount of time before it's cast again (you're not in the middle of another spell, you've already started the shackle cast, etc.)
Whether it works or is just superstition, I CoS anything shackled and CoE anything trapped. It's just a few global cooldowns and who knows, it might help.
The reshackle is basically to increase the chance that you have a shackle 'in the air' when an early break happens, imo. It helps because you don't have much time at all for a reshackle once the mob is on you. (Esp if it does annoying stuff like stun or interrupt your holy spells)
For accessible hit gear: I just use the scryer gem
I reshackle my add every time Moroes vanishes. It's just a convenient time to reset the timer. It has nothing to do with tin foil hat theories on shackle breaking early.
I'd like to see those of you spouting theories about how and why shackle breaks to back it up with some actual testing. I'm not interested in anecdotes about how your loot seed improved when you changed your raid leader, and I don't want to read magical thinking about how hit and spell penetration affect "heartbeat pulse" resist checks.
Test a hypothesis and share the results, give a link to previous such testing, or just stop wasting everyone's time.
Because if you have frequent enough breaks, then there's a good chance a break will occur as you're casting, which reduces the amount of time before it's cast again (you're not in the middle of another spell, you've already started the shackle cast, etc.)
Whether it works or is just superstition, I CoS anything shackled and CoE anything trapped. It's just a few global cooldowns and who knows, it might help.
(edit) also, our priests use rank 1 shackle.
It's pointless to CoS for shackle, it's not a shadow spell, fyi.
One of our priests told me it was an arcane-based resist check, I have yet to bother looking it up (was a few days ago, I'm lazy I admit), and I'm not doing anything else in that time period anyways.
I'll go look it up sometime, until then, it makes him happy .
(edit) eh nothing like a forum post to get me off my ass. is indeed holy resist. I'll tell him next time he fusses. I'll switch to CoE as a "just in case" for a freeze trap since I still have the time free when I'm casting nothing else.
For banish, it breaks early at specific intervals. It breaks at 12.5%, 25%, and 50% duration. If it goes to 15 seconds (half) it will ALWAYS go to completion, to the end of the banish at 30 seconds. ALWAYS. (PvE only -- PvP is different).
Same with enslave. It is a 5 minute duration. If it successfully makes it past 2:30, it will ALWAYS make it to 5 minutes. It never breaks at any point between 2:30 and 5:00. It can break at 1:15. Banish rank 2 never breaks between 15s and 30s. (or between 7.5s and 15).
I assume sheep, freeze trap, and shackle are the same. Enough to wager a bet.
Roots is different, as my druid knows well. So is fear and anything with a chance on damage to break rather than a guarantee to break.
% hit helps me with both banish and enslave durations and reliability. Penetration works only on things I already know have significant shadow resist -- which demons sometimes do. Conviniently, warlocks have Curse of Shadows.
Penetration and resist lowering curses can NOT get rid of the innate resist to all (including holy) that targets get per level higher than you.
Last edited by TheOnly : 03/20/07 at 11:18 PM.
Reason: clarification on spell penetration
If I was a warlock going to throw a curse on a shackled mob it'd probably be CoEx. Also as a priest I reshackle early if I have time then becuase I can, it refreshes the length, and I dont know if I might be busy at the point later on when I might have to do it otherwise.
I can't for the life of me figure out why people insist on reshackling the mob every 10-15 seconds.
If the mob works with an initial resist check vs spell hit, and then makes the same check at heartbeat intervals, then you gain absolutely nothing by reshackling. You are simply wasting mana. Unless there is some increased chance to break based on the length of the shackle, the hearbeat checks will still continue at the same rate and same resist check before you reshackled.
I was thinking about this for a while now.
I disagree, by thinking of shackle breaking as a % chance on a heartbeat resist tick. The chance of at least 1 proc(break) happening does increase with time.
Say the mob has 3% chance to break shackle on a heartbeat resist, and the resist check is made every second (not sure if these are the actual mechanics but just for illustration point). on 1 cycle we say it has 97% chance to stay shackled. however if we want to know the chance for it to stay shackled over 5 heartbeat resist intervals, knowing that it could break at any one of these intervals, we have to do a probibility calculation, since the 97% chance to stay shackled is now compounded. Take .97^5=.8587 This means with the values I used, the chance the mob will stay shackled through the 5 resist checks is 86%. As you can see, if you want to let the shackle last longer (say 10 resist checks), the chance of it staying in the shackle is only .97^10=.737 or 74%
It is always less risk to reshackle in a smaller interval, but there is also a piont where you have to worry about your mana and trust the randomness of shackle. Decide for yourself what it is imo.
you can verify this by running a test having 2 priests with the same +hit shackle identicle targets refreshing the shackle at different rates over a long period and noting how many breaks the target had. You should even be able to use this method to find the heartbeat resist proc rate if someone knows how much time is between each check.
I disagree, by thinking of shackle breaking as a % chance on a heartbeat resist tick. The chance of at least 1 proc(break) happening does increase with time.
Say the mob has 3% chance to break shackle on a heartbeat resist, and the resist check is made every second (not sure if these are the actual mechanics but just for illustration point). on 1 cycle we say it has 97% chance to stay shackled. however if we want to know the chance for it to stay shackled over 5 heartbeat resist intervals, knowing that it could break at any one of these intervals, we have to do a probibility calculation, since the 97% chance to stay shackled is now compounded. Take .97^5=.8587 This means with the values I used, the chance the mob will stay shackled through the 5 resist checks is 86%. As you can see, if you want to let the shackle last longer (say 10 resist checks), the chance of it staying in the shackle is only .97^10=.737 or 74%
It'd still be 74% regardless of how many times you cast shackle. With a 1-second heartbeat, the chance of it breaking in a given second has no relation whatsoever to when you last cast shackle (other than the obvious case of the duration ending).
However, it isn't a 1-second heartbeat. Assuming it works like other forms of CC, it's a 15 second heartbeat, which means that if you recast it every 10 seconds, the chance for a heartbeat resist will never happen unless you get three resists in a row on the cast.
03/19/07, 4:49 PM
