Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03/20/07, 6:58 PM   #1
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
Mage: Magic Absorption (pvp)

Avoiding the clutter of the mage thread. I keep seeing high-ranked pvp mages dumping points into this. Tier 2 of arcane, 5 points, increases all magic resists by 10 and restores 5% of your mana pool on a successful spell resist. I'm wondering if someone can explain why this talent would be good, because I always thought it was a joke talent to be honest. 10 resist for 5 points is abysmal. 5% of mana pool on a resist is pretty huge, but with casters typically having 99% chance to hit does this ever proc in pvp? Enough to be worth 5 points? Any insight into why anyone would spec this is appreciated.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 03/20/07, 7:28 PM   #2
crimsonsentinel
Bald Bull
 
crimsonsentinel's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Mages usually dont get hit capped due to the low amount of hit they get from talents (unless they specifically gear for it, but I don't personally know of any mages that do) so I imagine the mana restore makes for "free" resists at least in terms of mana usage.

edit: hmm i should probably specify that non-arcane mages don't get much hit from talents.

United States Online
Old 03/20/07, 7:35 PM   #3
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel View Post
Mages usually dont get hit capped due to the low amount of hit they get from talents (unless they specifically gear for it, but I don't personally know of any mages that do) so I imagine the mana restore makes for "free" resists at least in terms of mana usage.

edit: hmm i should probably specify that non-arcane mages don't get much hit from talents.
The absorption only occurs when you resist a spell cast on you, not vice versa. I'm referring to instances of pvp only. The base chance to hit a spell against another player is 96%, before gear.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 03/20/07, 7:44 PM   #4
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
<edited my comment for being incorrect rubbish>

Last edited by songster : 03/20/07 at 7:46 PM. Reason: Incorrect information

Great Britain Offline
Old 03/20/07, 7:46 PM   #5
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
It's "spells you resist", meaning, someone else has to cast a spell at you, and you resist it. The idea is that the 10 magic resist would help you resist more spells, but it's a pitiful amount that for some reason does not scale with level (it was 10 resist at level 60 as well).

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 03/20/07, 7:52 PM   #6
Tempestra
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Mage
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel View Post
Mages usually dont get hit capped due to the low amount of hit they get from talents (unless they specifically gear for it, but I don't personally know of any mages that do) so I imagine the mana restore makes for "free" resists at least in terms of mana usage.

edit: hmm i should probably specify that non-arcane mages don't get much hit from talents.
Err, chance to miss an equal level target is still 4% correct? That means you need around 36 spell hit rating from gear, or elemental precision (fire/frost), or 2/5 arcane focus (arcane). All of which you can get by randomly picking gear.

Being hit capped in pvp is basically a given.

What Vontre's asking about is why do mages spend 5 talent points to get 10 resist against all spells. It's clearly not for the off chance you resist a spell naturally based on level (1%). Therefore it must be for the 10 spell resist. Also, low tier arcane talents are garbage for PvP.

Therefore, we have to conclude that it's due to the the combination of a few helpful resist points plus the lack of a good alternative tier 1/2 pvp talent (clearcast in pvp? not so much).

Offline
Old 03/20/07, 9:48 PM   #7
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstorm
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
While most people have the hit cap for PvP which is 36 hit rating, hit cannot counter spell resists (only spell penetration does that). Also Tier 3 Arcane isn't much better than Tier 1, so it is a talent that has some return for your investment.

United States Offline
Old 03/20/07, 10:37 PM   #8
Phrenik
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Ner'zhul
I was actually surprised a lot of the high ranking arena mages in my BG did not take this talent. The real benefit from this talent is its synergy with the paladin and priest talents that reduce the chance of buffs being dispelled. With 10k mana and 5 points into magic absorption, you get 500 mana back every time you resist a dispel, which can happen multiple times from just one buff.

Now to go off on a tangent. Many arena mages I looked at have 5/5 in arcane focus, and I was wondering if anyone had tested to see if it provided any benefit in pvp past the 3% spell hit cap. I know there is speculation about arcane focus making sheep last longer, but I've never personally tested this. It could possibly also help counter improved concentration aura and the talents that most healers have to resist silences, but I haven't heard any word on this. Does anyone have any information?

Offline
Old 03/21/07, 3:02 AM   #9
Yes
progamer
 
Yes's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dragonmaw
Originally Posted by Phrenik View Post
I was actually surprised a lot of the high ranking arena mages in my BG did not take this talent. The real benefit from this talent is its synergy with the paladin and priest talents that reduce the chance of buffs being dispelled. With 10k mana and 5 points into magic absorption, you get 500 mana back every time you resist a dispel, which can happen multiple times from just one buff.
Exactly.

Also, there is nothing better to take.

I think now that most high ranked mages whose survivalbility is vital to their team are at 10000 hitpoints unbuffed, people are learning to counter cs/sheep/ff combos, mitigation is going to be very important.

Offline
Old 03/21/07, 1:33 PM   #10
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Phrenik View Post
I was actually surprised a lot of the high ranking arena mages in my BG did not take this talent. The real benefit from this talent is its synergy with the paladin and priest talents that reduce the chance of buffs being dispelled. With 10k mana and 5 points into magic absorption, you get 500 mana back every time you resist a dispel, which can happen multiple times from just one buff.

Now to go off on a tangent. Many arena mages I looked at have 5/5 in arcane focus, and I was wondering if anyone had tested to see if it provided any benefit in pvp past the 3% spell hit cap. I know there is speculation about arcane focus making sheep last longer, but I've never personally tested this. It could possibly also help counter improved concentration aura and the talents that most healers have to resist silences, but I haven't heard any word on this. Does anyone have any information?
Neat, this is the answer I was looking for.

As to arcane focus, yes it definitely helps against silences resist on healers.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 03/21/07, 1:47 PM   #11
Copernicus
Bald Bull
 
Copernicus's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
While most people have the hit cap for PvP which is 36 hit rating, hit cannot counter spell resists (only spell penetration does that). Also Tier 3 Arcane isn't much better than Tier 1, so it is a talent that has some return for your investment.
Last I checked (right after the Mage review patch), hit% could overcome binary resistsances. However, spell penetration would be a superior option after the hit cap due to the item budget.

The formula for a hit on a binary spell was (base hit percent + spell hit percent) * resistance. Capped at 99% of course. My quick math has 6% hit being equal to 20 spell penetration, so it's easy to see that hit% after the cap doesn't do a great deal as compared to spell penetration.

Offline
Old 03/21/07, 2:03 PM   #12
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Last I checked (right after the Mage review patch), hit% could overcome binary resistsances. However, spell penetration would be a superior option after the hit cap due to the item budget.

The formula for a hit on a binary spell was (base hit percent + spell hit percent) * resistance. Capped at 99% of course. My quick math has 6% hit being equal to 20 spell penetration, so it's easy to see that hit% after the cap doesn't do a great deal as compared to spell penetration.
But a talent like improved concentration aura doesn't involve magic resist, so spell pen would be useless against it.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 03/22/07, 4:22 AM   #13
Cagalli
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Phrenik View Post
Now to go off on a tangent. Many arena mages I looked at have 5/5 in arcane focus, and I was wondering if anyone had tested to see if it provided any benefit in pvp past the 3% spell hit cap. I know there is speculation about arcane focus making sheep last longer, but I've never personally tested this. It could possibly also help counter improved concentration aura and the talents that most healers have to resist silences, but I haven't heard any word on this. Does anyone have any information?
I just respec'd to get Arcane Focus 5/5 because Tailsman of the Breaker are becoming more and more common. I honestly don't see why it wouldn't help counter the extra resist rate from items like the above and various talents.

http://ctprofiles.net/37645

Offline
Old 03/29/07, 3:41 PM   #14
Lodi
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
Last I checked (right after the Mage review patch), hit% could overcome binary resistsances. However, spell penetration would be a superior option after the hit cap due to the item budget.

The formula for a hit on a binary spell was (base hit percent + spell hit percent) * resistance. Capped at 99% of course. My quick math has 6% hit being equal to 20 spell penetration, so it's easy to see that hit% after the cap doesn't do a great deal as compared to spell penetration.
Isn't it capped at 99% before resistances, so that there is a hard spellhit cap given level, and you get no benefit after that, just like once you reduce resistance to 0 w/ penetration, there's no benefit?

Offline
Old 04/04/07, 6:10 AM   #15
Phrenik
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Ner'zhul
Ok, so I tested magic absorption with the priest talent silent resolve and the reduced chance to have buffs dispelled is a different mechanic than resists. When a buff is not removed due to the talent, it's counted as a spell failure, not a resist and doesn't give back any mana. So this talent isn't really any good for arena.

I also did some short tests with arcane focus and hit gear (16% hit in total) vs. interrupt talents. It doesn't seem to do anything. In 20 casts vs. a paladin with improved concentration aura, I had 1 interrupt resisted, and 2 silences resisted. 3 resists out of 20 is 15%, although you could argue every cs is like casting 2 spells, a silence and an interrupt, and so 3 resists out of 40 is 7.5%. However, if spell hit worked against the anti-cs talents, you would expect to get only 1% resists. 20 casts is a very small sample but getting people to stand there getting cs'ed for over 10 minutes is pretty difficult.

Offline
 

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Mage] Amplify/Dampen Magic Mechanics? unsprung Class Mechanics 37 11/28/07 3:41 AM
Illhoof, Resistances and Magic Absorption Finkum Public Discussion 27 08/29/07 5:39 AM
666 Resilence a Magic Number? Cryect Public Discussion 1 10/10/06 1:55 PM
Amplify Magic worth or not draghkar Public Discussion 54 09/15/06 10:31 AM
Hazza'rah's Charm of Magic Ronneh Public Discussion 15 08/26/06 8:04 AM