mtrixis

First post, hopefully not breaking any rules Coming here for help with a bit of teh maths, as I lack the chops necessary for this.

Some of you are probably familiar with the really excellent mod Rating Buster

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...fo.php?id=5819

Essentially what it does is break apart any item that has a 'rating' in it (hit, crit, whatever), and then shows the actual % mod, in a nice parenthetical note beside the rating.

I really liked this, but after some discussion with a guild rogue, we figured if you're going to go that far, why not add up the others so you can see at a glance exactly what an item does for you.

With that in mind, we talked over some possibilities, and he added a per class total DPS display from str/agi/ap, a Tenacity display (how much armor increases lifespan, as a % increase from 0 armor), and a per class Dodge from agility display.

However, we'd also like to add a 'Power' display that shows the real value of 1% hit or crit for <insert class>. To start, Warriors and Rogues at least. 1% crit is not a 1% DPS increase when you have Impale, Deep Wounds, and Flurry. Similarly, 1% hit is not a 1% DPS increase while dual wielding, and with Dual Wield Spec - and even that differs, .625 for Warriros, .75 for Rogues, and the added rage for a hit over a miss, and so on.

What I'm looking for then, is some information on the math behind the actual value of 1% hit or 1% crit for (at least) Warriors and Rogues, taking into account the various talents that are available and modify the actual DPS increase granted from 1% hit or crit.

Once upon a time, I had a handy spreadsheet that broke down the numbers on Impale/Flurry at various levels of crit, but even if I still had it, it would be woefully outdated now. I lack the math skills necessary to compile this information, or I'd gladly do it myself.

Does anyone know of a resource for such information, or a person I could contact who would be interested in doing some of the gruntwork? Once we have the formulas, they can be easily added into our modified version of Rating Buster (tentatively titled Snap Judgment - the intent being to allow you to nearly instantly choose the better piece of gear for a given armor set).

Naturally, the Bliz forums failed miserably when I asked about this :P So I figured coming here would be worthwhile, more people interested in nuts and bolts number crunching.

Even with the few bits we've added, I've found this has made creating suits of gear for various purposes _much_ easier than sitting in the bank mulling over combinations with ItemRack. I'd like to make it even easier.

Here's a screenshot of the added mods to get an idea of what I'm talking about:

Here's a pic of the Gauntlet's of the Bold


Rating Buster shows you how much Crit you gain from the Agility, from the Critical Strike Rating, and how much Parry and raw Defense you gain from the Parry and Defense Ratings.

We added the Total DPS, Tenacity, and Dodge to the combined display at the bottom

This is handy for quickly comparing the two items in the same slot, and seeing the changes immediately without doing any mental number manipulation. And for me at least, seeing tenacity as a percentage also helped move armor from the nebulous realm of 'more is better' to actually getting an idea of how it will affect my lifespan, and what the value of an item with more armor really is.




Now, as for the crit and hit stuff, here's a good example:


Oh, works for buffs too, not that it matters much Kind of funny to see the tenacity gain from an Armor Scroll or whatever.


Just adding up the Crit/Hit rating %s and putting them as a new 'Power' line would be one thing, since I prefer having all the stat mods combined - we can obviously do that now. However, I'd like to go one step farther, and have that percentage reflect the actual DPS % you'd be gaining from the Crit + the Hit on any item, for any class, with any talents - or at least, the most commonly used DPS talents that affect the value of hit and/or crit.

I know there are mods out there (TankPoints/HealPoints?) that do various aggregate 'power level' displays for a given item, but that isn't quite what we're aiming for here - instead, we're trying to show you _exactly_ what a given item is doing for you, without the 'fun' of going 'ok, 14 str + 13 agi + 23 ap = ? dps, so clearly this item gives me more than that one... but oh wait, this one has 11 crit rating and that one has 5 crit rating and 6 hit rating, and I have 3/5 dual wield spec and maxed flurry...'

So if you know someone who loves math and ui mods, or you have the needed information yourself, please share, it would be much appreciated.

 

Jantteri

First of all, there is no clear DPS-increase from an item. It depends on the abilities the player uses. You could have one line where you give increase to autoattack DPS and other lines for different skills. Or if it's a caster-item you could have lines for a few main spells.

Secondly, to calculate the increase an item would give you need to know the character's stats and talents in addition to the stats from both items, new and old. +5 crit rating clearly gives more DPS-increase to someone with 1500 spelldmg than to someone with 500 spelldmg. In +%DPS it's same, but in +#DPS it's not. You need to get the formulas for a spell's DPS as a function of stats and talents, then have your addon calculate the DPS before and after and take the difference. There are people who are working on DPS-spreadsheets who post on this forum. You might want to ask them about the formulas.

 

IceBox

Deathwings Warrior DPS Spreadsheet got quite nice formulas for calculating. Afaik it don't contains the BC items but I think it would help you to get into warrior dps ^^

Link to thread
Link to file

For the other classes there are also some dps spreads up here in the forums.

 

◊ Bekah

I'd be happy enough with a mod that totaled up all the stats and converted them to basic ratings- Example Item:

20 Stamina
20 Intellect
20 Spirit
Equip: 10 hit rating
Equip 12 spell crit rating
Equip: +50 spell damage
Socket: 4 stamina/4 spell damage
Socket: 4 spell damage/4 spell crit rating
Socket: 7 spell damage
Enchant: 18 stamina 25 spell damage

Harder. Than. Hell. To. Read.

If there was a mod that cleaned all that up into easy to read figures, determined the total crit bonus form gear + intellect, and converted it to a % rating too... I'd be all over it >.>

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mtrixis

We talked a bit about an option to simply remove the blizzard item info (which is getting borderline useless for specifically the example you just posted), and instead just show the total actual bonuses an item gives you - 400 hp, 6.5 dps, 1.2% crit, blah blah

But that's down the line a bit, we're trying to get this crit/hit with talents thing sorted. Figuring out how much crit/hit vs ap you want as a melee or whatever is still outside the scope of a simple display, but accounting for talents would be extremely useful, which is why we're pursuing this info in the first place.

 

sp00n

For rogues, use Pf's spreadsheet.
Then use the AEP values given there OR directly the Pawn string provided by the spreadsheet.

Now of course that doesn't take survivability into account, but that should be covered pretty easily.

Item Ranking Rogue [horribly outdated]

 

GrizleyCQ

Its not possible to give a simple +dps number like you are wanting to do. Knowledge of talents and such aside the value of stats is not static. If it was static nobody would put the effort they do into modeling thier damage.

Each point of attack makes a point of crit worth more, and each point of crit makes a point of attack worth more.

 

TheOnly

I'll chime in on this and say the same thing.

Tenacity and DPS summaries are simply impossible. Sure, AP translates into white damage dps, but that really means nothing overall. Crit also contributes to dps, but how depends on about 30 ish factors, that are diffferent for each class and spec..

Tenacity, compared to armor = 0 is misleading. Every point of AC does in fact increase survivability by that percent, but the total % you are at already would have to be listed. So 6% tenacity isn't living 6% longer, because you are probably already at 450% 'tenacity' or something.


What is highly valuable is rolled up summaries, especially counting gems and enchants:

total Str, total +spell damage total +shadow (including spell). Total Stam, total dodge (including agi, defense, dodge) total crit (including crit and agi) etc.

Then you have to ask other questions to properly value crit and hit, like what the level of the target you are hitting is compared to you, and what its AC and chance to dodge/parry/block is, and its spell resistances, etc.

In short, your mod would work fine for levels 1 - 10, and start to not work after that.

 

Deathwing

Wow, people still referencing my spreadsheet? Yes, it's horribly outdated, and I've always been against these types of systems. Equivilancy systems oversimplify when most of the time WDF will determine what gear you get. Unless your mod can take into account personal playstyle, talents, stats and ratings on other gear, specific enemies, and a bevy of other factors, you're leaving important parts of the equation out.

If you're going to make a mod this complicated, might as well make a spreadsheet. Spreadsheets, at least I hope, engage the user and encourage them to figure out the system. I think a mod that sums everything down into DPS would further the rampant mechanics ignorance in the game today.

 

◊ Binkenstein

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the others here on the limitations of trying to oversimplify equivalency systems.

I've done some work for Shaman (as seen in the two spreadsheets in my sig), but that basing it on a spam one spell scenario.

I think that it may be possible to come up with a system to handle it accurately, but it would be incredibly complex, and best suited to DPS classes that can get into a cycle on damage abilities. You'd need to base it on talents, abilities, current stats, fight constraints, etc etc.

 

IceBox

@Deathwing I hope I didn't made anything false with refer to your spreadsheet ^^

Such mods and "helpers" just give hints based on hard numbers which may vary ingame so yo u can compare two items on a theoretical level and see which would be the better in a certain circumstance ( e.g. endless mana fireball rotation over an hour) then add some personal preferences and wait till the item drops :>

ps. will you make another dps spreadsheet? It was quite nice to look at even when I didn't checked any items

 

Deathwing

Don't take this for more than face value. I am considering updating my spreadsheet. It looks like some other people have released their versions. I haven't taken a look at them, so they might be good enough.

At the moment though, I don't think there's enough information available to create an accurate spreadsheet. Mainly, the new rage formula and couple odds and ends.

 

• Apate

well, gee, nevermind :P

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Kaelvanas

I must agree on this. It's mildly frustrating to see a piece of gear with agility, attack power, and crit%, and wondering what the total AP/crit is without having to do math on the agility for the crit. :-) Are there mods out there that do something similar to this? I may have to take a look at those, if so.

 

◊ Binkenstein

ratingbuster, off curse/ace, will do that, Installed it yesterday, quite handy.

 

Whitetooth

The new RatingBuster now has the Stat Summary feature that supports talant and buff mods.
http://www.wowinterface.com/download...ingBuster.html

 

◊ Kalman

You can do what you're trying to do with Pawn.

Of course, you need to feed it the equivalency values, but it's easy enough to do. There's a thread in the UI subforum with more information.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

◊ Vontre

Yeah, a mod that simply converted added up your gems and stats, and convereted the agility/intellect/what have you to things we actually cared about, that'd be great.

Example: For a rogue it would display totals of crit% and +AP only. That way we could quickly see how an item with agi, crit, and ap compares to an item with only crit and ap, for example.

www.magegraf.com
www.magegraf.com/mage_dps.zip

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

 

◊ Kalman

Get Pawn.

Create a scale for crit.

Value Crit Rating at 1/22.1 = 0.0452488
Agility at 1/40 = 0.025
+Skill at appropriate value

Create a scale for AP.
Value AP at 1.
Strength at 1.
Agility at 1.

At the bottom of any given item tooltip, you'll get two new lines in the tooltip:

Crit: X
AP: Y

Usable for any arbitrary scale you want to set up.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

◊ Vontre

Sounds cool, thanks

www.magegraf.com
www.magegraf.com/mage_dps.zip

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

 

◊ Kalman

You can also get values via, say, mage_dps.xls, to provide equivalency between +dmg, int, spirit, +crit, +hit, and create a DPS scale called... say.... "Fire DPS".... with Pawn, valuing each one appropriately, to do quick and dirty item comparisons between (e.g.) the absolute mass of different caster DPS rings available all of which are very close to one another.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained: