lythrdskynrd

What follows is not my original post ... but a number of us hunters over at TKA Something forums are "all a titter" about how clever and cool the post by Arcazua has turned out to be...

We've been on about it for a number of weeks now and one of the guys Arcuss has even gone and written a fancy-dancy little addon to go with the theorycraft.

We're all interested in hearing more opinions about the addon and theories and weights before they go on and give the goahead and release the addon to the general population (i say "we" like my input is anywhere near what they've done ... it's not I assure you )

Anyways - on with the post
---- -------------------------------------------

Agility Equivalence Points (AEP) was a concept developed by rogues well over a year ago to give a value to different stats on items by relating their usefulness to agility. Some rogues used it; others used their own versions. I'm just borrowing the name.

But this is in sore need of doing. Between changes to both the hunter class and core mechanics, and itemization being completely screwy, it's almost impossible by old standards to know which items are best.

And my synopsis at the end will not answer everything. (For you TL;DR folks, skip down to the bottom.) But hopefully it will give everyone a starting point.

Be aware: all figures I'm using are tabulated for a level 70 character. If you aren't 70 yet, you will be.


While there are other things that matter, primarily, a hunter in 2.0 is going to care about three things -- attack power, crit rate, and mana regeneration. Different stats affect these differently, and the hardest part is that different specs will value them differently. A survival spec will make greater use of crit chance, and a marks build has increased usefulness out of intellect. This is the primary reason why this will not be a one-size-fits-all answer for everyone. However, I will try to account for that most of the way through and only pick my own assumptions later.



ATTACK POWER

Attack power is fairly straightforward: 14 AP = 1 DPS.

To get attack power, there is actual "attack power" on items, or agility also gives 1 point of AP. As a result, calculating value of different items on attack power alone is simply.

1 AP = 1 AP
1 agi = 1 AP

What is more difficult about attack power is that it also scales special attacks by varying amounts. 14 AP may be 1 DPS, but roughly 6 attack power = 1 damage per Arcane Shot, and 4 attack power = 1 damage on Steady Shot.

In order to compare attack power to crit rate, we need to convert both to DPS. This is going to be highly build- and style-based, but let's pretend that a hunter trying to do maximum reasonable DPS - and by reasonable, I mean not completely mashing buttons to go out of mana in 10 seconds - will fire max rank Arcane Shot when it is up, as well as Multi Shot rank 1 (which is far more mana efficient than the other ranks.)

ASSUMPTION #1: In a 10 second period, let us suppose a hunter fires 1.5 Arcane Shots, 1 Multi Shot, and 2 Steady Shots every 10 seconds, and that the steady shots do not interfere with his autoshooting.

Even if we don't make these sort of assumptions now, we'll need them when we look at mana regeneration rates.

So the contributions of 1 AP to 10 seconds worth of damage is:
.821 (10/14 with 15% haste) damage on autoshot
.225 (.15 * 1.5) damage on Arcane Shot
.200 (2.8/14) damage on Muli Shot
.500 (.25 * 2) damage on Steady Shot
----------------------------------
1.746 damage in 10 seconds per AP, or .175 DPS per AP.

In other words, a bit more than merely the 1/14 (.071) that it does for autoshot. You might very well use another shot pattern -- I am not going to use the word 'cycle' to describe your shooting at all in this article -- but it should hopefully give us a good glance at our damage capabilities even if it isn't completely maxed out.

So 1 AP and 1 agi are worth .175 DPS, not counting the effect from crits. This is applicable to ALL hunters, and makes no talent assumptions.



CRIT RATE

Crit rating doubles the damage on a fixed percentage of shots. If you have a 20% crit rate, after firing 10,000 shots, you should expect to see 2,000 of them inflict double damage, meaning you have effectively fired 12,000 shots in that time. This applies to your overall damage, even if it might not in a short fight, and overall damage is what we care about. The only time this would not hold true is when the crit happens when your target has enough health a non-crit would kill them. We're going to forget about that since it makes things needlessly complicated.

Simply put...an X% crit rate will increase your total damage by X%, or X * 1.3 if you have Mortal Shots, but again, we are going to forget specific talents for now.

Crit rate comes from 2 sources: Crit Rating and Agility. At level 70,

~22 crit rating = 1%
40 agility = 1%

So coarsely speaking, in terms of crit alone, 1 crit rating is worth about 2 agility.

Actually putting this into DPS is difficult though, because it is a percentage of your non-crit damage, which means we need to know what your non-crit damage is.

ASSUMPTION #2: The hunter from assumption #1 will deal 2500 points of autoshot damage, 1200 from Arcane, 600 from Multi, and 1000 points from Steady during those 10 seconds, for 5300 non-crit damage. Because as gear improved, this will no doubt be conservative, we will simply call this 6000 damage, or 600 DPS.

On that assumption, 1% crit adds 6 DPS. Thus, from crit chance...

1 crit rating = .272 DPS
1 agility = .150 DPS

Curiously, this is almost as much as our AP amount for agi, which means, yes, agility is about twice as useful as attack power.


While I am here, though, there is one other stat that I have not mentioned that is very similar to crit rating -- HIT rating. Hit rating works more or less the same as crit up until you reach a point where you are not missing. On the assumption that you do not have enough hit rating already, 15.75 hit adds 1% chance-to-not-miss. So for the first 78 hit rating or so, 1 Hit Rating (HR) adds .381 DPS.

ASSUMPTION #3: We do not have enough hit rating for our chance to hit to be capped.

 

lythrdskynrd

MANA REGENERATION

This is the hard one. It doesn't directly measure up to DPS in any kind of direct way, so this is going to be VERY subjective. It is known, however, that it was also more beneficial during pre-expansion times to be good at managing your mana than it was to feign and drink during a long raid encounter.

ASSUMPTION #4: Where mana is concerned, we want to simply minimize our mana loss so we can continue shooting as long as possible.

This isn't much of an assumption, really. But for the hunter we described earlier,

Arcane Shot = 230 mana * 1.5, or 345 mana
Multi Shot rank 1 = 100 mana
Steady Shot = 110 mana * 2 = 220 mana

In a 10 second period, the hunter is going to use 665 mana. With Efficiency, which is the only talent I'm going to assume other than maybe Lethal Shots, this is 600 mana going out, or 300 MP5.

ASSUMPTION #5: A hunter who wants to maintain assumption #3 will be using Aspect of the Viper to try to minimize the 300 MP5 loss.

ASSUMPTION #6: The hunter in question will have 6000 mana (which is about what I have at 70 now), and will not make any use out of spirit regeneration.

These are big assumptions.

However, they are necessary ones to have anything resembling a remotely-manageable analysis without using spreadsheets and models and all kinds of crazy things. In order to limit variables, this has to be done.

My hunter has 77 base intellect. This means that, with Viper, I'm already counteracting about 19 MP5 loss. So for simplicity's sake, we'll say that we have 280 MP5 going out the window that needs to be made up in gear.


OK, so we've decided on that much. Now what?

Well, to be completely honest, I'm not sure. I'm going to do my best guessing for now, and somebody will probably come along later and improve on this thought process.

However, a hunter with 0 mana regen will only be generating autoshot DPS -- 250 of it. If, after running out of mana, or being concerned as we are approaching it, we need to lessen our shots, we will lose some or all of that 350 special attack DPS. (Again, non-crit.) If this is a result of 280 MP5 loss, then we can say that 1 MP5 is worth close to 1.25 DPS.

So 1 MP5 is worth 1.25 DPS, and 1 int is worth a quarter of that, or 0.313 DPS.

Considering a marks hunter would have additional benefit from Careful Aim, how backwards can it possibly be that INTELLECT is worth as much or more to our long-term damage as AGILITY??

Well, because it's wrong. Even though across a very long period of time, we need mana regen, we do have some starting mana, and eventually periods of rest do occur. When grinding, that might be as few and far between as possible, but it we use a 10 minute period as our expected "time before taking a break", then we need/have...stick with me here...

10 minute period, 600 DPS (350 from specials), 300 MP5 being spent
350 DPS from specials, across 10 minutes = 210,000 damage.
300 mana spent per 5 sec, across 10 minutes = 36,000 mana consumed.
210k dmg / 36k mana = 5.83 damage per mana (Is this for real?)
6000 base mana and 20 base MP5 = 8400 mana already present
36000 mana used - 8400 mana have = 27600 mana needed.
1 additional MP5 = 120 more mana generated
120 more mana * 5.83 DPM = 700 damage over 10 minutes.
700 damage per 10 minutes = 70 per minute = 1.17 DPS.

So all that work and we end up with a rather similar answer. This isn't surprising -- we only had 23% of the total mana we needed. Again, this is where a lot of our assumptions come into play, and you are perfectly legitimate in disputing this figure.

But what we end up with is
1 MP5 = 1.17 DPS
1 int = .292 DPS

While it might be a rough model to accept, it is the one I am going to use. If you think that's grotesquely false, then make up your own version, or use what I have below but change the weight of mana regen. Remember, mana regen only comes into play in the long-term. Obviously if you start full on mana, and blast your brains out, everything else will play a role in your damage while it will play none whatsoever. But we want to look at overall effectiveness, and for overall damage output, that does mean looking beyond the first 90 seconds -- for PvE, anyway. PvP'ers might have a different perspective. Oh yes, and...

ASSUMPTION #7: The hunter will not be using mana on anything but direct DPS.

This is obviously false, but we're going to go with it.



SYNOPSIS, SO FAR:

AP from Agility - .175 DPS
Crit from agility - .150 DPS
raw Attack Power - .175 DPS
Crit Rating - .272 DPS
Hit Rating - .381 DPS
Mana Per 5 Seconds - 1.17 DPS
Viper regen from Intellect - .292 DPS

Problem being, we left out the effect of crit percentage on other stuff. If you've already got 20% crit, it will add 20% to your damage, including the effects of the other skills!

ASSUMPTION #8: The hunter has roughly a 20% crit rate.

AP from agi - .21 DPS
Crit from agi - .150 DPS
raw AP - .21 DPS
Crit Rating - .272 DPS
HR - .457 DPS
MP5 - 1.40 DPS
Viper/Intellect - .350 DPS


Since most of these numbers are roughly multiples of .07, I'm going to multiply everything here for "AEP" if you want the simplified version.

Agi - 5 points
AP - 3 points
CR - 4 points
HR - 6.5 points
MP5 - 20 points
Int - 5 points

For discussing talents, I will still be going by the bolded DPS-equivalent values, but if you simply wanted "Agility Equivalence Points" as I promised in the title, there you go. It's still not the complete version, IMHO, since it fully neglects defensive skills, but make up your own values for that if you like.



afternote: Due to the complexity of the mana issues, but the general consensus that the mana regen values were too high, I have adjusted the point values as follows:

Agi - 10 points
AP - 6 points
CR - 8 points
HR - 13 points
MP5 - 20 points
Int - 5 points

This effectively is cutting mana regen effect in half.

 

lythrdskynrd

EFFECT FROM TALENTS:

Obviously talents now have a profound impact on our gear choices, beyond just "Do you have Lightning Reflexes? Yes/No"

Here are the talents that directly impact our damage...

ASSUMPTION #7: We do not make any gear decisions based on how they affect our pet.

Yes, RAP adds to pet's attack power, and all that, but let's just pretend that it affects all things equally. Mana regen is the only one of the three that does not somehow affect the pet, except maybe if you're using Kill Command.

Note: any time a talent affects damage without affecting crit rate, it also applies to hit rating.


BEAST MASTERY TALENTS:

Endurance Training / Thick Hide - adds to the effectiveness of stamina and armor. I have failed to talk about defense at all so far, and I will continue to do so for now. (And will not mention any other defensive talents.)

Focused Fire - simply adds 2%. This will have no bearing on any gear.

Ferocious Inspiration - another simple percentage buff. Everything scales up together.

Serpent's Swiftness - adds, sort of, 20% to autoshot damage. (The actual amount is closer to 17%.) This will lessen the impact of mana per 5 seconds since a greater portion of the hunter's attacks will be coming from non-mana abilities. If you have Serpent's Swiftness, you might consider dividing the values of MP5 and int by 1.17

The Beast Within - makes some stuff cheaper and adds 10% damage. The damage scales. The mana regen only lasts for 18 seconds, so it isn't a huge long-term savings. Since we aren't using any fixed length of time.


MARKSMANSHIP TALENTS:

Lethal Shots - adds 5% crit. Some effect on the impact of non-crit damage. One could argue this is already assumed.

Efficiency - increases longevity of mana by 11%. This was assumed above, so multiply the MP5 and Int values by 0.9 if you do NOT have this talent.

Improved Arcane - gives you the potential to fire 2 Arcanes in a 10 second period. I went with the assumption of 1.5, which takes 9 seconds by default. If you want to assume 2 Arcane Shots, you will need to rework the numbers from the top down as it has a trickling effect through everything.

Go For the Throat - emphasizes the usefulness of crit rating if you have a "focus drain" ability on your pet such as Claw or Lightning Breath. This can't be expressed numerically very easily, but you might add 10% to your two crit lines.

MORTAL SHOTS - This is an important one. It increases the effectiveness of your crit rating and crit-from-agi by an additional 30%, as well as your other talents by a bit. If you have Mortal Shots, multiply the two crit effects by 1.3, and the other lines by 1.05 (assuming you kept with my 20% crit rate.)

Barrage - increases Multi effectiveness. This effects each of AP, crit and mana efficiency a little differently, but I'm going to take the naive approach of saying it comes out evenly.

Combat Experience - adds 2% to the effects of agility and 6% to int. Rah.

Careful Aim - Take the attack power from raw AP, multiply it by 0.45, and call this "Attack Power from intellect", which needs to be added in to total int-based DPS at the end. This ends up being a little under 0.8 in our case, not counting other talent modifiers.

Trueshot Aura - improves non-AP benefits a bit. 125 AP vs 10 times that much otherwise and some additional damage is maybe 5% extra punch to crit and mana efficiency.

Improved Barrage - the added crit bonus helps AP and mana efficiency a bit, but not crit rating. Add a little bit to each. I don't feel like calculating how much.

Master Marksman - adds 10% to the effects of all AP benefits.


SURVIVAL TALENTS:

X-slaying - adds 3% damage and 3% crit BONUS to select creature types. When it applies, the damage bonus affects everything equally, and the crit bonus helps your crit rating's effectiveness by 3%.

Surefooted - Increases your chance to hit by 3%. This significiantly reduces the amount of hit rating that can be effective.

Killer Instinct - Adds 3% crit. Increases usefulness of AP and mana efficiency somewhat.

Lightning Reflexes - Multiplies the effects of all agility lines by 1.15

Thrill of the Hunt - Improves importance of crit rating and DECREASES importance of mana regeneration. It's hard to say by how much, but with a 20% crit rate going into survival, one would expect maybe a 27-28% chance with all the talents there, so this will add about 11% to how far your mana will stretch. I'll leave you to decide how to interpret that, since that does not mean simply plus and minus 11%.

Expose Weakness - while not a very direct benefit, adds some benefit to agility.

Master Tactician - improves non-crit numbers very slightly. Probably not even worth worrying about unless you have a super-fast weapon.

 

lythrdskynrd

SOME ITEMS:

While it does not tell the whole tale, I'm going to use the AEP point values listed above for simplicity, since we're pretending a generic no-talent perspective.

All items listed are best items on Allakhazam as of 2/28/07. As new items are discovered, this list will need to be updated.

Back
685 - Drape of the Dark Reavers
587 - Auchenai Death Shroud
532 - Cloak of the Inciter
520 - Battle-Iron Battlecloak
519 - Cloak of the Craft
496 - Vengeance Wrap
486 - Blood Knight War Cloak
438 - Cloak of Malice
420 - Cloak of Impulsiveness
412 - Shroud of Dominion

Chest
1056 - Chestguard of the Conniver (leather)
1036 - Breastplate of Rapid Striking
951 - Chestguard of the Prowler
941 - Thick Netherscale Breastplate
910 - Shard Encrusted Breastplate
903 - Ebon Netherscale Breastplate
884 - Terrorweave Tunic (leather)
881 - Primalstorm Breastplate (leather)
870 - Primalstrike Vest (leather)
852 - Demon Stalker Harness

Feet
921 - Fiend Slayer Boots
756 - Boots of the Endless Hunt
736 - The Master's Treads (leather)
705 - Boots of the Unjust (leather)
690 - Wild Stalker Boots
677 - Fel Leather Boots (leather)
654 - Cryptstalker Boots
628 - Edgewalker Longboots (leather)
626 - Bonescythe Sabatons (leather)
626 - Sky-Hunter Swift Boots

Finger
695 - Ring of Lethality
620 - Ring of Reciprocity
608 - Ring of a Thousand Marks
604 - Garona's Signet Ring
586 - Violet Signet of the Master Assassin
580 - Truestrike Ring
580 - Slayer's Mark of the Redemption
580 - Kaylaan's Signet
560 - Band of Anguish
560 - Ring of the Cryptstalker
554 - Band of Unnatural Forces
549 - Violet Signet
549 - Ravenclaw Band
504 - Leafbeard Ring
496 - Band of Reanimation

Hands
794 - Rift Stalker Gauntlets
771 - Handgrips of Assassination (leather)
767 - Demon Stalker Gauntlets
760 - Cobrascale Gloves (leather)
712 - Sha'tari Marksman's Gloves
703 - Predatory Gloves (leather)
703 - Ar'tor's Mainstay
675 - Netherdrake Gloves
638 - Bonescythe Gauntlets (leather)
634 - Hungarhide Gauntlets

Head
1112 - Cowl of Defiance (leather)
1048 - Cobrascale Hood (leather)
985 - Nethdrake Helm
970 - Dream-Wing Helm
967 - Mask of Veiled Death
959 - Steelpine Faceguard
910 - Darkguard Face Mask (leather)
893 - Savage Mask of the Lynx Lord (leather)
890 - Malefactor's Eyepatch
858 - The Night Watchman

Legs
1103 - Rift Stalker Leggings
1090 - Demon Stalker Greaves
1006 - Warpscale Leggings (leather)
950 - Leggings of Assassination (leather)
950 - Sunfury Legguards
931 - Mag'hari Huntsman's Leggings
930 - Rip-Flayer Leggings
925 - Oilcloth Breeches (leather)
898 - Cryptstalker Legguards
893 - Greaves of Destruction

Neck
638 - Choker of Vile Intent
603 - Worgen Claw Necklace
575 - Bone Chain Necklace
550 - Natasha's Choker
528 - Traitor's Noose
519 - Earthen Mark of Razing
512 - Prestor's Talisman of Connivery
501 - Talon Lord's Collar
482 - Insignia of the Mag'hari Hero
460 - Blood Guard's Necklace of Ferocity

Shoulders
815 - Talbuk Hide Spaulders (leather)
735 - Expedition Scout's Epaulets
733 - Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps (leather)
705 - Beastmaw Pauldrons
662 - Wastewalker Shoulderpads (leather)
650 - Rift Stalker Mantle
650 - Wyrmfury Pauldrons
636 - Mantle of the Unforgiven (leather)
624 - Consortium Mantle of Phasing
622 - Exotic Spiked Shoulders

Waist
889 - Girdle of the Prowler
828 - Girdle of the Deathdealer (leather)
796 - Girdle of Ferocity
778 - Socrethar's Girdle (leather)
773 - Shattrath's Champion Belt
745 - Telaari Hunting Girdle
735 - Rune-Engraved Belt
711 - Epoch's Whispering Cinch
709 - Naaru Belt of Prevision (leather)

Wrist
556 - Goldenlink Bracers
544 - Bracers of the Hunt
540 - Emerald Eye Bracer
514 - Cryptstalker Wristguards
505 - Stalker's War Bands
490 - Primalstrike Bracers (leather)
489 - Nightstalker's Wristguards (leather)
482 - Nightfall Wristguards (leather)
463 - Felstalker Bracers
459 - Ebon Netherscale Bracers

1H weapons
540 - Guile of Khoraazi
525 - Claw of the Netherwing Flight
462 - Vindicator's Brand
452 - Wicked Edge of the Planes
445 - Malchazeen
441 - Borak's Reminder
412 - Black Planar Edge
407 - Twin-Bladed Ripper
402 - Kingsfall
401 - Blazefury

2H weapons
1059 - Hellforged Halberd
1059 - Blackened SSpear
1052 - Bloodmoon
1050 - Hellscream'sWill
1034 - Sonic Spear
972 - Mooncleaver
912 - Lunar Crescent
888 - Felsteel Reaper
861 - Gladiator's Decapitator
824 - Quantum Blade
794 - High Warlord's Decapitator

Gems
78 - Rigid yellow (6 hit)
72 - Bright red (12 AP)
69 - Glinting orange (3 agi / 3 hit)
60 - Delicate red (6 agi)
48 - Smooth yellow (6 crit)
40 - Lustrous blue (2 MP5)
35 - Dazzling green (3 int, 1 MP5)
30 - Brilliant yellow (6 int)
30 - Shifting purple (3 agi, 4 sta)
24 - Jagged green (4 sta, 3 crit)

 

lythrdskynrd

link to an addon (ACE 2)
http://www-en.curse-gaming.com/files...005/hunteraep/
http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=4226

 

lythrdskynrd

well that's it ... the thing that the lads at TKA Something have come up with so far
http://forums.tkasomething.com/viewtopic.php?t=3824

there's been plenty of discussion around it but I personally agree with the ratings

*BUT* I'm really interested in hearing the input of the wider community in terms of number crunching and whatnot ... how do you think AEP stacks up?

There are some things that Arcuaza is trying to work on ... adding a value to stamina and armor class for example.

BUT I think in measuring pure DPS AEP holds up pretty well

 

aquacadet

Very interesting stuff, I was actually looking to try and figure out a point system recently. Since I pvp mostly I may set my MP5 and Int values even lower. Thanks for the great baseline numbers!

Is there anyway you could update your addon to include resilience and stam? You can start them both with a point value of 0, and I'll gladly change it.

 

lythrdskynrd

yeah ... that's the first response of almost EVERY person who's read it and the biggest 'bone of contention' in AEP right now

Originally the numbers were based on a 10 minute battle and over any period of time MP5 increases in value and everything else just stays constant.

but the values of everything else were then doubled - effectively changing the base time of a battle to 5 min.

I would be cautious of reducing intellect in a PVP situation as it does equate to being your 'ready mana pool' but if you're dealing with PVP battles they usually are won within 2.5 minutes or so ... so you could redouble all stats again (excluding Mp5)

Try it out first though ... I tested for an hour or two grinding in netherstorm after I first read it and changed my mind about the value of having mana there when you need it ...

another good testpoint is of course Dr Boom

 

lythrdskynrd

I should also throw in the bit that is my teeny tiny little contribution to the already impressive AEP work ... (i'm proud of it) ... Individual personal adjustment of weights based on talent profile

---------------------
Adjustments for talents - all talents are adjusted based on having their full allotment ... whether that be 5/5 or 2/2

so if you only have 1/5 of a talent divide the adjustment by that
much the values given are adjustment values and are not new
base values ... so with serpents swiftness -3.0 from Mp5

Serpents Swiftness 5/5
MP5 -3.00
INT -0.70

Efficiency 0/5 (if you do NOT have efficiency add the following scores)
MP5 2.00
INT 0.50

Mortal Shots
CRIT 2.4

Combat Experience
AGI 0.02
INT 0.30

Careful Aim
INT 2.7

Master Marksman
AGI 0.60
AP 0.60

Lightning Reflexes
AGI 1.50

Thrill of the Hunt (estimated based on a difficult proof)
AGI 0.30
CRIT 0.80
MP5 -1.50
INT -0.50

 

◊ Farstrider

Would you consider adding the effect of AP on pet dps and taking account of that, or would it get too messy depending on BM talents?

 

• Lurchington

I've updated my spreadsheet to use these AEP values, and will attach here, however, I'm curious about which AEP values you used.

edit3: mine seems to be using more recent item values from wowhead so that's the source of some discrepancies


I used the last ones that you posted:

Agi - 10 points
AP - 6 points
CR - 8 points
HR - 13 points
MP5 - 20 points
Int - 5 points


And compared to yours:

685 - Drape of the Dark Reavers
587 - Auchenai Death Shroud
532 - Cloak of the Inciter
520 - Battle-Iron Battlecloak
519 - Cloak of the Craft
496 - Vengeance Wrap
486 - Blood Knight War Cloak
438 - Cloak of Malice
420 - Cloak of Impulsiveness
412 - Shroud of Dominion

and here's what I have in the cloak column
edit: I handle sockets by assigning AEP value I'd put in that socket (usually ignore the bonus)
edit2: I didn't do leather and most Pre-TBC items, beacause it essentially doubles my work and in general aren't the top of the line

The difference is with drape of the dark reavers

where's my math mistake?

 

aquacadet

Yeah, I was thinking specifically in terms of arena pvp too. Where I'm usually the first or second to die. It's very very rare for me to run out of mana, and without careful aim int doesn't help me gain ap either. Though obviously I have a PvE set where that sort of thing is very important.

 

lythrdskynrd

well i think the general idea is that it does get too messy
my suggestion to Arcuss was for to simply include the pet effects as a "second line" in the addon

 

lythrdskynrd

Not sure you have one actually i do admit that the original post isn't mine and they values are from WELL before the Exotic Spiked Shoulders (amon others) were nerfed - so your values are probably better

What I have found though is that the AEP addon is wickedly fantastic - because it does all the math for you in realtime

of course a spreadsheet like that (DOES) tell you what to aim for

 

neko

what if my hit rating is past 78 already how does this change the AEP values of items for me

 

◊ Eej

Personally I don't like simplifying stats down to some equivalence system. I mean, how much is mp5 really worth when you have a Shadow Priest and Resto Shaman in your group plus you're using Mageblood and Sporefish? AEP doesn't take into account potential resilience values of your target as well.

But hey what do I know? I rolled a troll. :<

 

lythrdskynrd

Oh yeah! sorry the answers to all of those things are spread across about a dozen threads
we've since come to the conclusion that

78 hit rating = maximum benefit vs. Same level mobs
136 HR = Maximum Benefit vs Raid Boss Mobs (@ LVL 70 ofc)

*SO* if you're 'grinding' lvl 70 mobs swap out anything above 78 hit rating to something that gives more damage / be it crit / AP / AGI / or longevity Int / MP5

If you're going up against raidboss or higher level mobs - optimize your gear to 136 Hit rating and ignore any further item value from hit rating ... swap it out / optimize it for damage or longevity again.

Essentially it's saying that if you get the 2 piece desolation mail bonus (35 HR) you can swap off one other piece of HR gear for more crit ap or agi

It's no longer effective past that

I personally try to optimize for between 78 and 136 as I see diminishing returns (there are few mobs I expect to face at level 71, fewer at 72 and very few at 73 ... then again ... that's probably when I need the damage the most ... so maybe I should rethink that position)

 

Trohck

Nice effort on this post - I really like how you've called out your assumptions. Unfortunately, while I think the post is a good general guideline the assumptions make it not useful for tuning your gear which is what I think it was aimed at. I just wanted to point out a couple issues with said assumptions:

This is not always going to be valid since there's a lot of gear with +hit out there. Depending on the mob's defense you may need more or less of it, but if you stack +hit gear I think you'll hit the cap and have extra +hit that is not useful to you.

If you look on the Hunter Mechanics thread (god I wish this forum had a better search function that could show only posts inside a thread containing the target words) you'll find a detailed math analysis that shows Aspect of the Hawk > Aspect of the Viper.

This assumption is the reason why this post isn't useful for fine-tuning gear/talents and why a spreadsheet is needed - you can assume a shot rotation and that's already a big assumption depending on playstyle and what you're fighting. But the value of AP vs. Crit changes significantly as your AP grows, and this assumption is only valid for one sample in a very, very large space. A few people have already programmed spreadsheets/simulators aimed at calculating this.

I don't want to bash your post because I admire the effort. But if you can rethink these assumption I think you'll have great results.

 

lythrdskynrd

No of course - it is an oversimplification ... but it's also (in my opinon) better than flying completely blind.

The assumptions are clearly stated at the start ... and you've got to adjust your preferences to your playstyle ... and the fact that it's leaving out the benefits of x, y, & z are generally (if not explicitly) stated.

Think of it perhaps as 'paper doll' solo hunter stat values - then you can adjust values that are dependant on environment and group composition (bufferfish) based on your current situation.

What is the value of Blessing of Wisdom? (41 Mp5 = 820 AEP)
Blessing of Might? (220 AP = 1320 AEP)

I like to see it as a guide to point the intelligent hunter in the right direction - evaluations can be made (in fact must be made) situationally as well.