08/16/07, 5:31 PM   #1501
Cathela
Still Bald Bull

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Karoshi What Cathela is trying to say (at least I think so) is the usage of TP for questions like "What will make me live longer against 18 xyMobs? a) 50% blockrating + 120 block value or b) 25% blockrating + 400 block value"
Yeah, that was what I was getting at.

Also, my 40% figure for Redoubt uptime assumed that your hit table is "fully covered" when you have Redoubt up (i.e., with Redoubt up you won't take an unblocked hit) and that your block value isn't high enough to fully block any hits, and that you're taking hits fast enough that all charges of Redoubt always get used up (getting hit so fast that the 10-second time limit doesn't come into play.). Basically, assuming that every hit or block can proc Redoubt, and every hit while Redoubt is up uses a charge.

The math (if anyone's interested) goes like this: Ignore misses/dodges/parries. They don't proc Redoubt and they don't consume charges, so you can just pretend they don't happen. Redoubt has 5 charges, and (we're assuming) every hit while it's up uses a charge. So the question is, when you take a hit, what's the chance that Redoubt procced on one of the last 5 hits you took? Or equivalently, what's the chance that none of the previous 5 hitss procced Redoubt? That chance (the chance that Redoubt is down) is (0.90)^5 = 59%, so the chance of Redoubt being up is 41%.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 08/19/07, 10:46 PM #1502 Twinky Von Kaiser   Lawlbubble Blood Elf Paladin   Cenarius I hear that def will no longer make a person (mostly, if not only tanks) immune to the daze effect of mobs. I beleive this was mainly brought around by the birds in skettis being able to daze most other classes except those def capped. If this change is pushed through and Tanks can now be dazed by mobs, what does this do for tanking? How would this impare a tanks movement in fights where movement is a must. This would prove quite painful on bosses that require movement, much less us tanking and moving multiple mobs. Bad infernal on prince, you show your back for a brief second.. daze through an infernal, Al'ar adds daze when trying to pick up newly spawned ones, vashj movement in p3. kael Add and phoenix movement etc. Granted this information is second hand to me, I am yet to find anything solid in the patch notes, and i havn't been on the PTR's in some time. I was curious however to the reaction of some of the fellow tank-a-dins in here if such a change were to happen.
 08/20/07, 1:42 AM #1503 Ragnor King Hippo   Ragnor Human Paladin   Blackrock Yes it seems like another "not thought through properly" knee jerk change, but it's only a proposed change and hasn't been implemented on the ptr as far as I'm aware (haven't been on the ptr for awhile). If it does go through, every tank will have to always walk backwards to move an add. Moving something you are tanking will be hella slow and people playing on higher latancy (eg: All Australians, New Zealanders & Asians) will get dazed alot The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest. www.retpaladin.com
 08/20/07, 1:54 AM #1504 Lights Von Kaiser   Lights Blood Elf Warlock   No WoW Account to be honest, It's going to blow if they do go through with the change for defense cap daze.....a sad day for tankage...
 08/20/07, 1:54 AM #1505 Virac Von Kaiser   Elizabathory Blood Elf Paladin   Malygos You can get dazed even if you are facing the mob as long as you are moving away from it.
 08/20/07, 4:20 AM #1506 Ragnor King Hippo   Ragnor Human Paladin   Blackrock You can't get dazed walking backwards when every attack is dodged, parried or blocked as far as I'm aware. The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest. www.retpaladin.com
 08/20/07, 6:35 AM #1507 Aldaron Glass Joe   Aldaron Draenei Paladin   Gul'dan (EU) MaxHP or taking Socket Bonuses? Im at a point right now where I could use some Stamina only Gems on my Equipment without coming under the 102,4% avoidance. Im unsure if I should take all possible socket bonuses or leave them beside for Max Stamina Gems. So what do you think are the better Gems after reaching Crush-Immunity? My Arsenal Link is: http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gul'dan&n=Aldaron
08/20/07, 6:59 AM   #1508
Karoshi
Piston Honda

Troll Priest

Gul'dan (EU)
 Originally Posted by Aldaron Im at a point right now where I could use some Stamina only Gems on my Equipment without coming under the 102,4% avoidance. Im unsure if I should take all possible socket bonuses or leave them beside for Max Stamina Gems. So what do you think are the better Gems after reaching Crush-Immunity? My Arsenal Link is: http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gul'dan&n=Aldaron
I'd always go for stamina after CB-immunity. Try to get some more avoidance; Legs form Curator, Maiden's gloves, random drop kara boots and try to replace your trinkets with stamina stuff - that should make quite a jump. Also the heroic badges helmet is really nice for getting your trinket slots free.

08/20/07, 9:16 AM   #1509
khel
Piston Honda

Pandaren Monk

Stormreaver (EU)
 Originally Posted by Twinky I hear that def will no longer make a person (mostly, if not only tanks) immune to the daze effect of mobs. I beleive this was mainly brought around by the birds in skettis being able to daze most other classes except those def capped. If this change is pushed through and Tanks can now be dazed by mobs, what does this do for tanking? How would this impare a tanks movement in fights where movement is a must. This would prove quite painful on bosses that require movement, much less us tanking and moving multiple mobs. Bad infernal on prince, you show your back for a brief second.. daze through an infernal, Al'ar adds daze when trying to pick up newly spawned ones, vashj movement in p3. kael Add and phoenix movement etc. Granted this information is second hand to me, I am yet to find anything solid in the patch notes, and i havn't been on the PTR's in some time. I was curious however to the reaction of some of the fellow tank-a-dins in here if such a change were to happen.
If this is true, then it would only increase the importance for tanks to strafe to positions instead of turning their backs. They should be doing it anyway really...

 08/20/07, 12:53 PM #1510 Twinky Von Kaiser   Lawlbubble Blood Elf Paladin   Cenarius Most tanks strafe as often as possible, but if you are trying to always keep your avoidance arc facing the mob (as to keep block/dodge/parry on the hit table) then you have to constantly change your strafing angle, especially if you're chasing a mob that's not moving in a convinient straight line. If the daze effect were to come through and you changed your strafe angle slightly and mis judged that 180 degree arc and you do get dazed, one hit dazes seem to be all too common in the BC. You just increased your traved time by 40% for that 6? seconds, not to mention the chance of that daze being refreshed while you correct the stance. In all i guess we won't have a choice if it is implemented, 'i have a mob on me! get it off (random raid member)' ... 'Hang on a second their champ, I'm dazed I'll be there in 5 mins ;/ (tank handling multiple adds)' The other thing about tanking a pack of mobs, unless you're on a wall which cannot be walked up, the mobs slowly spread out and if there is enough they will get into your back unless you walk backward, it would only take a second of one or 2 behind that 180 arc to daze you. /shrug wait and see i guess.
08/20/07, 2:59 PM   #1511
Cathela
Still Bald Bull

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Twinky In all i guess we won't have a choice if it is implemented, 'i have a mob on me! get it off (random raid member)' ... 'Hang on a second their champ, I'm dazed I'll be there in 5 mins ;/ (tank handling multiple adds)'
Of the fights I've seen, I think Al'ar is where this will be the biggest problem, since I'm frequently tanking an ember (or two or three) while chasing another one. Basically I'll have to rely a lot more on having other paladins taunt and stun them.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

08/20/07, 8:37 PM   #1512
Karoshi
Piston Honda

Troll Priest

Gul'dan (EU)
 Originally Posted by Cathela Of the fights I've seen, I think Al'ar is where this will be the biggest problem, since I'm frequently tanking an ember (or two or three) while chasing another one. Basically I'll have to rely a lot more on having other paladins taunt and stun them.
We just got Al'ar down for the first time 3 hours ago and what worked out best for us in the end was tanking more embers and bringing more direct dps to Al'ar. If I get dazed with my 8-12 embers on me, things get could quite... difficult I guess.

 08/21/07, 11:05 AM #1513 Fuseflower Glass Joe   Fuseflower Blood Elf Paladin   Smolderthorn Last week my guild was learning tidewalker so I have specc'd 20 holy and 41 prot. I noticed that my healing took a very small hit (I just have to chug a few more pots) but my tanking ability is not too bad. With this spec I have proven that I can be a main healer in 25man raids and be a main tank for kara and can tank trash/murlocks in ssc. I know my gear needs a little more work. While crush-immunity would be nice, it is not my focus since I am never tanking bosses except for in kara but thats easy enough and the healers can heal through a few crushings here and there. I am going to focus on getting as much +damage tanking gear as I can. I plan on getting Justicar (or crystalforge) shoulders, Crystalforge gloves, Belt of the Guardian, Justicar Chestguard, and the sword off leotheras (I know the gladiator mace is better but my arena teams always play without me lol). I am currently building up my resist gear for frost and nature resist so I can tank the adds for hydros. Can a paladin tank pick up all four adds with consecrate? I know they are kinda far from each other when they spawn... With my prot spec, I hope to fill the "aoe tank" role...but I am not certain how needed that role is later on. Here are all the fights that I think that I could be useful for aoe tanking: 1. Hydros(?) - adds 2. Tidewalker - adds 3. Alar - adds 4. Solarian - adds 5. The bird packs in the eye 6. Karathress - tanking the hunter+pet (but this is a healing intensive fight so we use me healing and a feral druid or dps warrior tanking) so basically 2(or 3) out of 6 bosses in ssc and 2 out of 4 bosses in the eye. So the statics for "having a use" are pretty high and I don't feel guilty being prot. But how is it in black temple and Hyjal? I know absolutely nothing about the fights there. Are there any boss fights there with aoe packs or anything where a prot paladin can be especially useful? Basically is there any case for an aoe-offtank in the "true" end game. Thanks in advance for your help!
08/21/07, 11:09 AM   #1514
ugla
Von Kaiser

Orc Hunter

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Karoshi We just got Al'ar down for the first time 3 hours ago and what worked out best for us in the end was tanking more embers and bringing more direct dps to Al'ar. If I get dazed with my 8-12 embers on me, things get could quite... difficult I guess.
Having 3 hunters for Al'ar makes picking up embers trivial, as one misdirect will be up for every meteor. With two, you can just chase the embers every 3rd meteor, or have another tank bring them near you and then pull those off the other tank when it's safe.

08/21/07, 11:57 AM   #1515
Ha Ha!

Orc Death Knight

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Fuseflower ...With my prot spec, I hope to fill the "aoe tank" role...but I am not certain how needed that role is later on. Here are all the fights that I think that I could be useful for aoe tanking: 1. Hydros(?) - adds 2. Tidewalker - adds 3. Alar - adds 4. Solarian - adds 5. The bird packs in the eye 6. Karathress - tanking the hunter+pet (but this is a healing intensive fight so we use me healing and a feral druid or dps warrior tanking) ...Basically is there any case for an aoe-offtank in the "true" end game. Thanks in advance for your help!
Couple things:
I've been our guild's Moro tank and it is very possible to do it without going full protection, the only prot talent you really *need* is Imp. Righteous Fury so your enemic +heal still generates enough threat initially. After that, it's all about hit points, mitigation and earthshield

As for other opportunities to tank: We are not in BT/Hyjal as of yet, so I can't speak to that-but we have Vashj down and are working on Kael and with the guild already having 2 feral druids in addition to our protection warriors, there hasn't been another fight where I would bring anything that the ferals couldn't do just as well. So I've stayed Holy specced and healed for all of the rest. I think it all comes down to your guild's make-up. Could you do what the ferals do? Sure. But if you have the choice between a feral tanking and you healing or vice versa, I think most guilds would prefer us healing. ymmv.

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