Eir

Oh well. It was a bit of wishful thinking to imagine Blizzard would give 20% SA. If it did, it would just get nerfed anyway.

11% is still quite a bit if you look through your WWS parses to see how much mana you're getting back. But an extra 1% just doesn't FEEL like very much.

If it was 20%, I'd be kicking myself for passing T6 gloves to a Holy this week. :P

 

Lights

You mean to tell me that the encounters before Gruul's were not anti-Paladin? Lots of the tanking situations are "designed" for Warriors, and you can solve most of the "problems" with a grounding totem or a fear ward.

About the Gruul's Lair subject saying how Paladin mechanics work against us and how it's sub-optimal. I tanked both Gruul and HKM with sub-optimal gear (non T4) and that's how I got my T4 gear. I don't know but the way it was said, it pretty much would almost make any rising prot Paladin respec or roll a Warrior.

Each to his own, I would agree that Warriors are better single-targets, but that doesn't leave Paladins out of the picture as the MT role. I believe we can do it, just takes lots of training/discipline from your group/guild/raid.

Being that my guild was built upon Paladin tanking, my guild fully believes I can tank anything that we encounter, with some slight doubt at first, but then realization that it can be done.

I went from 5 mans -> Heroics -> Karazhan -> Gruul's -> (here is where I am at now)

What about Nightbane? I tanked him. Mechanics work against us there.

HKM Encounter:
- If non HKM targets are not picked up, there are recovery issues (you instantly build threat on more than one target and it could result in a wipe)
- Maulgar's fear (after all adds are down) requires an offtank, and cannot be solo tanked without sacrificing a random person in the raid dying.

Gruul Encounter:
- Topping off when silenced at a bad time, but usually I popped my lucky pocket watch and had redoubt up (not reliable), so had no real -serious- problem.
- Running back to the boss is NOT a problem. I have done this encounter multiple times and executed the pattern flawlessly without having an issue to run back in. Frapsing this fight shouldn't be necessary but I will if you would like one.

Beyond:
We know there's issues. We know, we know. But it's not stopping those who still try.

 

Ragnor

Wait till you try the void reaver trash that overcharges, wtb spell reflect. Hell even being one of the 3-4 tanks for void reavers is pretty sad due to our reliance on holy shield for threat, paladin OT threat generation is what 400-500 TPS at best with 300-400 +dmg, have fun getting threat back quickly after the knockback. Competent dps will have to hold back significantly.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Cathela

Not really, no. I never have trouble getting aggro back 3-4 times on VR. Obviously things work much better if you're the starting tank, but I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want you to be.

EDIT: Going along with what Lights just said: Yes, there are problems. This is known. But far too often people make molehills into mountains. Like the guy a few pages back saying paladins couldn't tank Hydross because consecrating the adds would get you killed. There's a point where you need to actually go out and try shit before you just assume it can't be done.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Xetal

I have tried it, and the spike damage is more dangerous and the threat on 5 of them low enough compared to single-target tanking them that it simply is not worth it IMO. Why would you subject one tank to 5 attackers on an already spiky fight when you could split them up to different tanks? Doing something just because you can, even when it is an inferior strategy, is hardly something to boast about.

 

• Theras

Hydross is only a high spike damage fight when you reach the 100% mark. Having a single person tank Hydross plus the four adds at the 0%-10% marks is about equivalent to the damage a single person takes at the 50% mark from just Hydross. However, I find that having focused healing on a single target for the balance of the phase is significantly less prone to fail points when a healer assigned to an off-tank dies.

<Illidari Demon Hunter>

 

Cathela

I suppose the fact that I've done this for several weeks and over a dozen attempts and never once had a problem with burst damage has blinded me to the "inferiority" of the strategy.

Sarcasm aside, my experience matches Theras' exactly. I honestly can't imagine what you're doing differently that you've found this to be non-viable. Not gearing to 350+ resist? Not keeping 490 defense? Letting the adds stay up past the +50% mark?

EDIT: And I do apologize for the poor assumption. But I stand by my remark that far too many people are just looking for things to complain about rather than actually trying to make paladin tanking work.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Karoshi

I've done it and still do it and yet I didn't get in any problems there. Of course - if the adds don't die around the 25% mark I wouldn't recommend this anyway. Bring some more warlocks and you got some nice, safe and easy pewpew there.

kilhmachinima

 

Octopa

Void Reaver is easy
We usually start with a warrior tank to ensure they CAN tank him at least sometimes, but I have no problem to be the second tank in the list (mostly together with our feral). When I'm opening the fight I'll tank him around 50-60% of the time.
For info: Buffed at ~500 spelldmg (flask + food + oil + priest spirit buff) and judged Crusader while still being CB-immune with HS up works like Magic ;-)

 

• Deris

Anecdotal evidence is useless - and I refuse to believe that you are generating as much threat as a Feral druid OT, unless you can back that claim up and prove that you are somehow a better button pusher than any other Prot Paladin that I have ever seen.

Feral OT threat generation so far beyond eclipses a Paladins it is laughable. Why people are even trying to argue this point is redundant, its like trying to say Fury Warriors are just as good as Rogues now.

 

Aett

Anecdotal evidence be damned, but my assumptions are here to stay!

..

Seriously, I think you're overestimating the amount of OT threat a feral druid can generate. I'm not saying that a paladin will generate more, but coming from a dps perspective on the fight, I can say that no class generates a ton of OT threat. I can almost go all out with Salv and twisting WF/Tranquil Air totems. Most of the time our dps warriors go splat by the end.

I'd more trust the people who say, "Hey, I've done it" than people who are making broad assertions without presenting even anecdotal evidence.

 

• Deris

Okay well my anecdotal evidence says that once a Feral druid picks up aggro on Void Reaver, he is going to keep it through at least 4 knockbacks. Since I've seen it happen. This is also with the Hunters MD'ing the Warrior (we always have 1 feral, 1 prot war. The 3rd depends on who is there - but usually prot war) and it still takes him forever to get aggro back.

Holy Shield is just too big a % of our threat Generation to even consider a Paladin as an "OT" in a min/max perspective - which ultimately this board is all about. Yes a Paladin can do lots of stuff - but hey, I've also seen a Warlock tank the Boglord trash mobs in SSC with 17k health and over 50% mitigation. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is a great idea. On the same token he (the warlock) generates far superior AOE threat while taking similar damage, on top of receiving heals better and having more "snap" aggro than a Paladin outside of taunt.

 

Lights

sounds like your main tank is bad at the aggro gen

 

Aett

At this point it's no longer OT threat. The limiting factor for warriors and druids generating OT threat is rage starvation. Once you have aggro that isn't an issue anymore. In this situation the paladin would be blocking and the lost threat due to not being able to proc holy shield would no longer be an issue.

 

thaen

Quick question about off-role stuff. Please shun me appropriately if I should be asking this in the Ret thread, but I'm a tank first, so I figured I might get better responses here.

I would like to be able to add *some* kind of DPS when I'm not tanking (particularly on some of the fights that our guild is now "done learning" and trying to kill as quickly as possible -- Attumen, Aran, Netherspite, etc). Given that I'm currently 0/49/12, what's my best option for DPS?

AP+strength+big 2 hander? Lots of spell damage and a big 2h? Lots of spell damage and a fast 1h?

I know that I won't be doing a lot of anything, but if I could get up to 300dps, I might actually feel useful on fights like Aran, instead of feeling like the JoW bitch until the Elementals spawn.

 

Cathela

When I get aggro on Void Reaver I always keep it through at least 4 knockbacks. Same goes for our prot warriors. I'm not sure what that really proves, other than the fact that a tank getting hit is going to generate more threat than a tank that's not getting hit, regardless of class.

Okay, I'll bite: What buffs does this warlock have to reach 50% physical mitigation?

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Cathela

A two-hander is always going to produce more damage than a one-hander, given similar item levels, etc. The added white damage and the ~20% boost to SoR with a two-hander will outweigh the extra spelldamage you could get from a one-hander/shield. Personally when I want dps I go with a nice fat two-hander (Hammer of the Naruu socketed/enchanted for spelldamage is great for this) and SoR with spelldamage.

The other option would be to move one point into SoC and stack AP/crit/etc. I don't know how well this would work, since I've never tried it.

Personally, I just heal on Aran til the elementals come out, even if that means I'm the fourth healer. If I'm tanking the run and we have a resto shaman along, I actually have him dps so he can watch for interrupts more easily while I heal.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Lights

for fights like shade it's best to just heal.

 

thaen

We one-shot Aran pretty consistently with 3 healers, burning him down before he polys, and they rarely even use mana pots. I'm better off DPS'ing to make the fight shorter than healing when I don't need to.

I'll try to get me a big 2h and stacking spell damage.

 

Cathela

Yeah, that's actually smarter than me healing "just because". I guess my point there was that I usually try to look for ways to convert the other healers into dps before doing it myself.

If Hammer of the Naaru drops for you guys, there's really no reason not to give it to Prot and Holy paladins. I can't think of another class that would have a good use for it, and it's really not even a good Ret weapon (compared to, say, Gorehowl). A 119dps weapon with +90 spelldamage (enchant/gems included) is a very fun toy.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Deth

During those times you go for high spelldamage extra damage, which trinkets do you prefer? My guildy prefers the wrath darkmoon card combined with a spelldamage trinket. Any thoughts on this?

"Death is only the Ultimate Excuse"

 

ninielin

He doesn't have 50% mitigation. The warlock mitigation isn't additive. I haven't done tests but pretty sure soul link mitigation is done before armor check.

I did some tanking as a Demo too ( mainly heroic tanking boss included) with S2 arene stuff ( armor boost). 4000/4500 armor + master demo ( 10% mitigation) + soul link ( 20% mitigation).

At the end the real mitigation is closer to 40/45%. Althought with resilience you can't get crit, you also have 0 avoidance and can get crushed by any level 73 ^^ Warlock tank isn't a good option outside of mobs that deal purely magic dmg and then ya its the best tank but mostly because of aggro generation( see leo/kael add/illidan/twins emp blablabla).