[Paladin] MTanking viability thread - Page 51

Veneda · 05/17/07, 7:52 AM

In theory, Ardent Defender is paladin anti-spike ability. I would say I would rather see it working instead of creating new solutions that might need another 1-2 patches to tune.

30/35% is definetly better then initial Ardent Defender, but since problem with jumping over the reduced damage range seems to be still very much here, wouldn't it be easier to just turn around what we got at the start, having now 20% reduced damage each time HP drops below 50%?

Of course it's not active ability, but in whole 8.5 sec HS-to-HS time there is not that much time to use another active ability anyway. Which brings another simple, yet very helpful change to implement - making Improved. HS change not only number of charges and damage, but also duration of the spell. 12 sec. duration (10 sec. cooldown remains) would be quite helpful in keeping HS up even in very hectic situations.

Phantom · 05/17/07, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Dots

No, it doesn't. For MTing, it's just like vorda said; health is a buffer for big spikes and to give healers a wider margin for error. With lower health, you run the risk of getting killed by a few fast hits without time to react. No instant heal will make up for this.

Are there raid boss fights now where a paladin is in mortal danger of being gibbed by spike damage, whereas a warrior is not? If not, then this is just theory.

But this is where the skill comes in. A skilled paladin will save his instant heal for right after a big hit, or a chain of small ones. He's right in the mob's face; he can see it swing better than anyone.

• zeidrich · 05/17/07, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

Are there raid boss fights now where a paladin is in mortal danger of being gibbed by spike damage, whereas a warrior is not? If not, then this is just theory.

Yes.

Charsi · 05/17/07, 12:32 PM

I think it would be neat if Ardent Defender mimicked the rogue talent Cheat Death, in a way. As in, "any hit that would otherwise kill you is reduced in damage by 50%".

Then having fewer hitpoints would, in an odd sort of way, be fine - because the Paladin wouldn't be as vulnerable to the huge spike - the last hit in the spike would be halved in damage.

It would also make them great, possibly overpowered, Hurtful Strike/Overcharge tankers

Lucit · 05/17/07, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Phantom

Are there raid boss fights now where a paladin is in mortal danger of being gibbed by spike damage, whereas a warrior is not? If not, then this is just theory.

But this is where the skill comes in. A skilled paladin will save his instant heal for right after a big hit, or a chain of small ones. He's right in the mob's face; he can see it swing better than anyone.

I wouldn't say there are fights with heavy spike damage where a warrior isn't in mortal danger and a paladin is. It's just that paladins are in *more* mortal danger than warriors.

Although, if you're at 18k+ raid buffed, your healers really have no excuse for letting you die to spike damage. The extra health buffer just helps when you're learning the fight, which is why warriors tank.

NicotineJones · 05/17/07, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Charsi

I think it would be neat if Ardent Defender mimicked the rogue talent Cheat Death, in a way. As in, "any hit that would otherwise kill you is reduced in damage by 50%".

How's this for a simple, elegant fix:

If damage would kill you, instead you take damage equal to 90/80/70/60/50% of your current hit points. This causes Forebearance and cannot occur while you have Forbearance.

Doesn't do anything against slow, steady damage. Doesn't do a whole lot in PvP. Does a ton against big spikes.

Phantom · 05/18/07, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by Lucit

I wouldn't say there are fights with heavy spike damage where a warrior isn't in mortal danger and a paladin is. It's just that paladins are in *more* mortal danger than warriors.

Although, if you're at 18k+ raid buffed, your healers really have no excuse for letting you die to spike damage. The extra health buffer just helps when you're learning the fight, which is why warriors tank.

Exactly my point. When you have 18k, what's another 1.5k? In fact, with the particular ability I've described, the paladin would actually have more net health then the warrior. Imagine a warrior that could use last stand 4-5 times a minute. Why is Last Stand valuable at all? Why are health pots and healthstones valuable to a tank at all? The ability to restore health in the middle of a fight, and take the edge off spikes, gives your healers some extra breathing room. Lag happens. Wrong key pressed. Any number of things.

And as far as I know, the only things that can one-shot a paladin and not a warrior, are those arcane golems in TK. And a warrior tanks those because of spell reflect. A gimmick. As long as a Paladin can survive one hit, the ability would function just like extra health. And anything that will 2-shot a paladin, will 2-shot a warrior.

Anyways, it was wierd idea I thought I'd throw out. If someone else has a better idea on how to fix the health/mitigation issue, that doesn't end up cloning a warrior-like ability, I'd be open to it.

Ragnor · 05/18/07, 2:12 AM

You point is a bit silly imo, more stamina is always better period. 1500 hp is significant, for example it's more than the difference in stamina between T4 and T6. Two tiers better gear is less of a difference than the base stamina gap. Even worse the real stamina gap is alot higher as warriors don't have to gear for as much block and dodge to be uncrushable

yuri · 05/18/07, 3:54 AM

Just a quick question from my side:

I have been wondering what will happen to tanking pallys as gear gets better and thus migitation increases. As you will be hit less, reckoning will proc less. Will this reduce aggro generation? Does reckoning even matter that much in creating thread?

Regan_ · 05/18/07, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by yuri

Just a quick question from my side:

I have been wondering what will happen to tanking pallys as gear gets better and thus migitation increases. As you will be hit less, reckoning will proc less. Will this reduce aggro generation? Does reckoning even matter that much in creating thread?

This has actually been itching me lately. I need to install a proc counter and try to measure reckoning effectiveness as a threat talent on my next Karazhan run (or maybe i'll just try an heroic tonight without too many multimob packs that could skew the results).

I've been wondering if at good avoidance levels it might be better to get the new Improved Seal of Rightenousness for threat.

EDIT: NVM, I found out that I still had the SWstats data of my previous Kara run. I'm not a math guy but I'll try to improvise some theorycraft. Essentially, SW says Reckoning was 2,7% of my total damage, but I don't know if it counts the extra SoR damage as reckoning damage or it's added to the general SoR damage. SoR+JoR was 27% of my damage, and it has a greater threat value than a Reck proc due to all of it being Holy damage. So on the surface it does look that Imp. SoR would be a better threat talent (27*0,15=4,05% extra damage, which is greater than what I'm getting from Reck and has a higher threat modifier.

Again, this is based on stored SW data and maybe my math is faulty.

yuri · 05/18/07, 6:10 AM

Well just some very simplified math from my side:

Assuming you have 50% parry+dodge+miss vs bossmobs.

That means reckoning will on avg proc every 20th attack of the boss
(assuming 10miss, that leaves 10 coming through and reckoning procing on one of them as it is 10% chance.)

So every 20 attacks of the boss you gain 4bonus attacks.

If we have boss with a speed of 1.5 (including specials), it would proc every 30 seconds on avg.

Now of course we would need some threat values(which i unfortanetely dont have at hand) for each attack to find out just how much bonus threat reckoning really gives(because i have the feeling sw stats wont include extra sor dmg in reckoning).

Of course it has to be taken into account that reckoning procs off all forms of dmg, so dots or aoes or other non avoidable boss damage could alter the values quite a bit.

Regan_ · 05/18/07, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by yuri

(because i have the feeling sw stats wont include extra sor dmg in reckoning).

Yes, that's what I suspect too.

Phantom · 05/18/07, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Ragnor

You point is a bit silly imo, more stamina is always better period. 1500 hp is significant, for example it's more than the difference in stamina between T4 and T6. Two tiers better gear is less of a difference than the base stamina gap. Even worse the real stamina gap is alot higher as warriors don't have to gear for as much block and dodge to be uncrushable

Sure, more max health is always good. But I think we already know the problem with giving paladins equal stam to warriors, as that would overpower holy paladin pvp healing. And another +stam talent deep in prot would be redundant, when paladins already get a 6% talent. So what else is there? What other creative way to meet the health gap is there?

Aditu · 05/18/07, 11:22 AM

What if they gave a talent deep in the prot tree that increased base Stamina by X%?

Nite_Moogle · 05/18/07, 11:26 AM

when paladins already get a 6% talent.

Shift Ardent Defender down a tier and add: also increases your stamina by 30/60/90/120/150% of your level. Instant HP balance with warriors without allowing other trees to get it and makes AD absolutely worth the points so there's no more crying about how it sucks for leapfrogging.