Agreed that a more sustained OT'ing ability would be hot, hell even a new aura or somthing while we are in the OT'ing posistion.
I'm not gonna argue too much if they do give us more health though.
On a side note was an off day today and went into kara.. no stop watch again -.-
Although i did tank nightbane with just the 2 min Pvp trinket. Went really smooth except with the last 15% or so i was so focused on my enemy cast bar i wasn't doing all that much threat and a warlock got smacked. Apart from that it was alot easier then i expected it to be.
Agreed that a more sustained OT'ing ability would be hot, hell even a new aura or somthing while we are in the OT'ing posistion.
I'm not gonna argue too much if they do give us more health though.
On a side note was an off day today and went into kara.. no stop watch again -.-
Although i did tank nightbane with just the 2 min Pvp trinket. Went really smooth except with the last 15% or so i was so focused on my enemy cast bar i wasn't doing all that much threat and a warlock got smacked. Apart from that it was alot easier then i expected it to be.
I did it with the 5 min trinket, it is just as easy, if you have good DPS you can tank through it, and luckily if you don't need trinkets to be uncrushable, even better!
I've tanked Gruul several times and I have always timed my Holy Shield to where it was up before silence, minus a few hiccups, but I would pop my Moroe's watch and avoid all damage.
It's hard to get uncrushable as a paladin without holy shield up, and when I mean right tanking stats, I mean somewhere around where I currently have, because that's all I've tested.
I've done this fight flawlessly so many times, so I highly doubt there's any real issue with Paladins tanking here, minus the silence.
Armory me.
Armory you ... for a 41/20 holy/prot paladin who apparently didn't get any healing gear from Karazhan? Did I miss the joke somewhere?
While on the topic of things I'm missing, wowjutsu only shows Technics killing Gruul as of three weeks ago, am I missing something there? (although it shows you with Justicar legs from the start of May, so obviously you at least were killing Gruul back then.)
[edited wording to be less offensive, considering I myself am an armchair warrior.]
On the topic of HS timing, unless you let it drop deliberately so you can put it up when the Reverb timer ticks down (or wait for the start of reverb to refresh it), I can't see how you can guarantee it'll be up when you need it. And leaving holy shield down right before a reverb strikes me as a bad idea (although I guess you could wait from 15 seconds to go, refresh at 10 then at 0).
Last edited by Thelyna : 08/05/07 at 4:48 AM.
DeeNogger: "No dot timer? Get your belt off, its spanking time."
On the expansion servers at Blizzcon, there are several Paladin changes, all of which are in the Retribution tree as far as I could tell. Only one affects tanking.
On top of the movement speed increase from Pursuit of Justice, the talent reduces your chance to be hit by spells by 4%.
I had to redo Prot talents on my Paladin when I was trying out the Expansion machines, but I wasn't paying any attention to potential talent buffs. As far as I could tell, the number and layout of the talents were the same, but I didn't check each mouseover closely.
Armory you ... for a 41/20 holy/prot paladin who apparently didn't get any healing gear from Karazhan? Did I miss the joke somewhere?
While on the topic of things I'm missing, wowjutsu only shows Technics killing Gruul as of three weeks ago, am I missing something there? (although it shows you with Justicar legs from the start of May, so obviously you at least were killing Gruul back then.)
[edited wording to be less offensive, considering I myself am an armchair warrior.]
On the topic of HS timing, unless you let it drop deliberately so you can put it up when the Reverb timer ticks down (or wait for the start of reverb to refresh it), I can't see how you can guarantee it'll be up when you need it. And leaving holy shield down right before a reverb strikes me as a bad idea (although I guess you could wait from 15 seconds to go, refresh at 10 then at 0).
TLDR I respecced Holy for the weekend bro for Arenas.
I'll logout in my tanking gear for you.
On the topic of HS timing, unless you let it drop deliberately so you can put it up when the Reverb timer ticks down (or wait for the start of reverb to refresh it), I can't see how you can guarantee it'll be up when you need it. And leaving holy shield down right before a reverb strikes me as a bad idea (although I guess you could wait from 15 seconds to go, refresh at 10 then at 0).
Well you don't even have to do that. If you're up for a refresh at 15 seconds to reverb, just go ahead with the normal plan and refresh at 5 and you'll have 5 seconds left going into the reverb. The only time you'd have to wait is if it's going to drop during the reverb, and then only for a few seconds. If you plan it far enough ahead and watch for redoubt, you could minimize the danger of even those few seconds.
Or so I would think, but I've never tanked Gruul.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I've been lurking on this thread for a long time. I'm very impressed with the level of discorse.
I had the misfortune to be paired as OT with our guilds warrior class leader in Kara originally relatively early in BC. He demanded 100% of all tanking loot, and the raid wasn't prepared to offset this even slightly, either in tanking loot or something else that helped a hybrid class (i.e. the only loot I'd see was after everyone else had it - though later they started making noises of letting me have priority on tier 4 loot - by that time I'd had it with these jack-asses). The guild backed him up 100%, which is still rumbling through the guild politics with ramifications (the guild's lead 25 man team DID turn over the pattern to Boots of The Protector to me when it dropped not too long ago, and partly as a result of that I'm recently feeling more charitable to them - though... to my knowledge I am the guild's only prot pali armorsmith).
I decided to level my priest for end-game instances instead and dumped the group with ongoing prejudice. Recently, my priest ended up in Kara on the leading edge of our guilds second 25 man - the rest of the team isn't quite ready to focus only on 25 man's, so my Kara team has decided to do up to Curator with alts then switching to mains after. To keep things fresh...
I've continued to play my pali whenever possible, always as prot, focusing efforts on heroics to build gear.
So... Anyway, Tuesday is more or less my first night as MT in Kara. I'm pretty excited and far more nervous than I probably should be.
I'm basically exalted with all of the reasonable factions, and have pretty much every blue mentioned in the various threads (incl. Jade Skull Breatplate).
For Kara... Any suggestions on swapping in or out non-PvP gear? I'm a few heroics from the badges shield, but think that is probably a tactical upgrade for a prot pali from the Sha'tar exalted rep one. Could people take a peak at my gear and build with Kara up to Curator in mind? Enchant wise, I'm still looking for an enchanter with the 1% dodge to cloak.
My build philosphy has been...
1) No crits (simplistically 490 def, actually can be less if you have some resilience).
2) Uncrushable
3) Stamina.
4) Damage and healing over additional mitigation. (Those lazy healers need to keep me full of mana dammit!). Prot pali's shine in holding agro vs. warriors, so play to this - many fights are timed in 25 man end-game, so.... let the dps'ers put the petal to the medal.
I get a lot of extremely positive comments in heroics (I don't have problems getting groups lol, and I'm on a ton of friend's lists), so I think I'm barking up the right trees, but I'm thinking 10+ raids are 'different'. And I'm nervous. You should see the number of Super Rejuvenation potions I have on me, never mind flasks etc..
Note: I don't do PvP. Pretty much period, silly for a PvP server, but I started/stayed there because of RL relationships. I'm over the top impressed with prot pali's ability to do heroic's and grind. Prot warriors pretty much can't do PvP or grind, so I think we're a huge leg up. I've no desire to change from prot ever - one of my daily joys is trying to grab as many things as possible and kill them all solo-wise. Arguably better and faster at grinding than my mage.
For Kara... Any suggestions on swapping in or out gear? I'm a few heroics from the badges shield, but think that is probably a tactical upgrade for a prot pali from the Sha'tar exalted rep one. Could people take a peak at my gear and build with Kara up to Curator in mind? Enchant wise, I'm still looking for an enchanter with the 1% dodge to cloak.
FYI, there's an option in the forum control panel somewhere to add a link to your character name, which you can point to your armory page. Makes it easier for people to check you out.
The only red flag I see looking at your gear is that you're only at 487 defense. That's easily fixable by swapping just about any tanking ring in for Ashyne's gift, or by just being flasked all the time. Other than that, looks good. You'll be uncrushable with basic raid buffs and you've got more hp unbuffed than most paladins going into Kara for the first time.
I consider the badge shield an upgrade from the Sha'tar rep shield, since the added armor offsets the loss of stamina and makes your burst survivability essentially the same, and then you have the extra avoidance on the badge shield. Whether it's 31 badges worth of upgrade is, I suppose, a matter of personal preference. (Given that we haven't seen a single ALD in ~20 Gruul kills, I'm quite happy I got one.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The only red flag I see looking at your gear is that you're only at 487 defense. That's easily fixable by swapping just about any tanking ring in for Ashyne's gift, or by just being flasked all the time. Other than that, looks good. You'll be uncrushable with basic raid buffs and you've got more hp unbuffed than most paladins going into Kara for the first time.
I consider the badge shield an upgrade from the Sha'tar rep shield, since the added armor offsets the loss of stamina and makes your burst survivability essentially the same, and then you have the extra avoidance on the badge shield. Whether it's 31 badges worth of upgrade is, I suppose, a matter of personal preference. (Given that we haven't seen a single ALD in ~20 Gruul kills, I'm quite happy I got one.)
I think 487 defense plus 26 resilience leaves me uncrittable? (487 def + 26 resiliance >= 490 def?).
Shield-wise, I think I've come to terms with Azure Shield of Coldara as preferable to Crest of the Sha-tar. All else being equal... is +18 stamina better than plus 15 to block rating from as an enchant, esp. given tactical changes in gear (weapons, shields and librams being three of the few items you can swap mid-fight)
I think 487 defense plus 26 resilience leaves me uncrittable? (487 def + 26 resiliance >= 490 def?).
Oh right, I forgot the resilience. You're all set, then.
Shield-wise, I think I've come to terms with Azure Shield of Coldara as preferable to Crest of the Sha-tar. All else being equal... is +18 stamina better than plus 15 to block rating from as an enchant, esp. given tactical changes in gear.
Stamina, definitely. In most cases healer mana isn't an issue compared to burst survivability. The only case where the block value is better is serious AoE tanking, which is fun when you get a chance to do it, but not what you'll be doing the vast majority of the time.
I intend to flask all of the time for raids.
You'll probably find at some point that it's not worth flasking for at least the lower half of Kara, especially in your gear. But, better safe than sorry, I'm sure.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
FYI, there's an option in the forum control panel somewhere to add a link to your character name, which you can point to your armory page. Makes it easier for people to check you out.
Happy to help others... can't find it. Can you private mail me details of how to?
For the sake of discussion, let's take it for true.
Basically it's a last stand in 4 minute cooldown. Stacking it shouldn't be a problem if any damage done (consecration ticks, holy shield...) counts towards it. It also lasts twice with half the cooldown, so it's actually better than last stand.
Of course, you sacrifice your threat generation for it, but if used like an oh-shit button later in a fight you should have enough threat buffer to allow for 20 seconds of diminished threat generation.
The Judgement would be our thunderclap, something I've been dreaming for quite long time. It's also actually better than thunderclap since it also applies to magic damage. It's the kind of ability that would make raids include protection paladins to keep it up (unless it's a base skill, which i doubt).
The only problem is that 10 duration is very short... any kind of disruptive mechanic in the fight will make it fall.
My only problem is relinquishing Judgement of the Crusader for it. Although I guess a retribution paladin would keep it up if they start to become common in raids. But I don't like switching a class dependency (needing a warrior to thunderclap for us) for another (needing a paladin to keep Crusader for us). Still a great addition if true.
I wasn't at blizzcon, but I wdid watch the entire class panel, and they did not mention any specific abilities for sure, the entire exchange was a tiny comment about how they could improve the hitpoints of protection paladins when talking about how retribution wasn't currently a viable role.
My guess is someone took the comment and ran away with their imagination.
The entire panel is up on youtube. There is a wcradio.com version, but it's very low quality. The much higher quality version is split into 6 parts, just search for "Blizzcon class panel" on youtube.
In the final video 6/6, about 45 seconds till the end, someone asks if prot paladins will be able to equal tanks at the high end to warriors or even bears, and the response is - "One of the places where they really lack is, they don't really have the comparable hitpoints to bears or warriors, so that's one of the things we're going to address in deep protection"
It is unrealistic to say you can 'time' holy shield DBM's silence timer is somewhat off anyway, timing it would only mean your more likely to get caught. Chances of silence catching a prot paladin vs chances of a warrior being crushed? about the same.
The idea is to be able to take the damage rather than avoid it (which is based on luck and you may get a string of hits (prince is one who will show you this when he parries ^.^). A warrior is less crushing immune in my honest opinion, that said unless a boss his hitting for 5-8k on both tanks a paladin's ardent defender could yield up to 1500HP and it has no cooldown other than a range that it will activate, it is something to consider i know many pass it up but think about gruul where you could go down to 35% health quite fast if the next hit is 5k and you are in AD at 4k you will survive (in theory) chances of a warrior surviving in sitiuations like that are slim to none..its luck but it is predictable that AD will save you. Any prot paladin who has tanked heroics will know this. Paladin T5 becomes that much more desireble when you consider the massive ammount of block value on it and hte armor. Im actually starting to think that a paladin who has gone for Uncrushable > Armor+stamina+block value is as good as a warrior and gearing that way the HP gap becomes smaller and by using items like belt of the guardian (warriors most likely wont touch getting one because of what it is) you gain in strengths. AoE tanking itself is more about HP/armor and block value and so is boss tanking.
Threat only appears to be an issue when:
-not being hit
-not being hit fast
-Avoidance too high
Theras for instance sustained 900+ TPS (not fully sure if i added it all right as i skipped lifebloom and avengers shield and hammer of wrath(cant do while main tanking so skipped ^.^ and spiritual attunement mana! >.< sorry) it might be more) on void reaver..thats on par with BT warrior threat on a fight where chances are hes not hit all the time. This is a good result add a ret paladin and that would go up to about 991 TPS.
Anyway hopefully the effective health idea is talked about ive become a big fan (after being a person who thinks 25% dodge is a nice goal to becoming someone who realises that having more armor means taking less damage which is easily testable in-game!)
My only problem is relinquishing Judgement of the Crusader for it. Although I guess a retribution paladin would keep it up if they start to become common in raids. But I don't like switching a class dependency (needing a warrior to thunderclap for us) for another (needing a paladin to keep Crusader for us). Still a great addition if true.
I don't really use JoC all the time myself in 10mans. If you look at Karazan, there is so many encounters that reduce the +threat from other group members over time.
Attumen - Haven't done in a while, so cant recall if he needed it.
Moroes - People kill adds first, you get a NICE threat cushion.
Maiden - Druid/Warrior tanks anyway, hate silence.
Opera - All encounters is either "burst threat to start" or "different targets for dps"
Curator - You could tank this without SoR even due to adds.
Shade - I stand in a corner looking funny here. And heal/"dps".. and whatever.
Illhoof - Dps has to switch to Kil'rek & Chains, while you build steadily.
Netherspite - Beamaggro makes it irrelevant other than for dps-boost.
Chess - :P
Prince - P1 he hits like a little child, so have to use JoW to get mana, I sometimes switch in P2 to JoC to increase threat+dps.
Nightbane - Fears & Moving out of Charred will reduce dps.
In 25mans, I'm a firm believer in always having a ret paladin anyway.
In your gear, I wouldn't be surprised if you have major mana issues. I'm decked in mostly Kara gear now, and I have mana issues on Prince without a shadow priest in my group. I would bet that in your gear, you'll have issues on Attumen Phase 2, and probably Phase 1 if you aren't tanking both him and his horse.
I have a set of gear that's partially crushable (5%) and has MUCH lower armor (I swap out my Kara shield for the Sporegarr one, among other things) for tanking the first half of Kara. It's impossible to keep aggro for more than a couple minutes without taking a reasonable amount of damage, and your gear is such that you might benefit from having a "crushable" set.
Two questions for the group:
- Anyone have any more information about the new pallie talents?
- I'm having threat issues on Prince. I'm spiking at 1000 tps (two fully blocked thrash cycles in a row), but I can't sustain a full threat cycle for the duration of the fight. If I remove Consecration or downrank it, my "normal" TPS drops to around 500, which simply isn't high enough with our DPS. (For the record, 500 tps is keeping max-rank HS up, JoR, SoR, and Exorcism.) Am I doing something wrong? I've got two-piece T4 and over 200 spell damage. What's going on here?
edit: Looking at my WWS, it looks like Consecration doesn't hit Prince at all, and is a complete waste of mana.
It looks fake to me. Supposedly, this ability was mentioned in a video interview apart from the Blizzcon panels and yet the person has the exact wording on the full ability?
Nothing like this was mentioned at all at Blizzcon. And if it was indeed mentioned in an interview, who did the interview? Even if it was for an obscure website, it would be all over MMO-Champion or WoR by now. Hell, they were able to dig out stuff by the German video rating agency about WoW before Blizzcon.
Looking at my WWS, it looks like Consecration doesn't hit Prince at all, and is a complete waste of mana.
This seems to be a pretty prevalent problem. I was tanking Magtheridon the other day, and had consistent problems getting close enough to him to hit him with Consecrate. Same for a late-night drunken MC clear, I actually had to stand in the lava to hit Rag with Consecrate. I've seen people report similar problems on Lurker, which wouldn't surprise me at all (I haven't tried tanking him yet).
I have a set of gear that's partially crushable (5%) and has MUCH lower armor (I swap out my Kara shield for the Sporegarr one, among other things) for tanking the first half of Kara. It's impossible to keep aggro for more than a couple minutes without taking a reasonable amount of damage, and your gear is such that you might benefit from having a "crushable" set.
One thing I've been doing is making sets of gear with less pure avoidance like dodge, but maintaining uncrushability with block rating. This should help increase your damage intake at a measured rate that's less spiky, allowing you to get more heals and regen more mana from SA. Block rating is so cheap, it's not too hard, and more blocking also means more threat generated from Holy Shield anyway. I'm starting to consider any unused HS charges as a waste of mana and a lost opportunity for more threat.
Originally Posted by thaen
- I'm having threat issues on Prince. I'm spiking at 1000 tps (two fully blocked thrash cycles in a row), but I can't sustain a full threat cycle for the duration of the fight. If I remove Consecration or downrank it, my "normal" TPS drops to around 500, which simply isn't high enough with our DPS. (For the record, 500 tps is keeping max-rank HS up, JoR, SoR, and Exorcism.) Am I doing something wrong? I've got two-piece T4 and over 200 spell damage. What's going on here?
I think they're looking at the problem with Consecration and AOEs in general needing to hit the middle of a mob's hitbox rather than just the edge. In the meantime, you have some room in which you can take a few steps towards Prince and drop a Consecrate and not flip him around to your back side.
It looks fake to me. Supposedly, this ability was mentioned in a video interview apart from the Blizzcon panels and yet the person has the exact wording on the full ability?
Nothing like this was mentioned at all at Blizzcon. And if it was indeed mentioned in an interview, who did the interview? Even if it was for an obscure website, it would be all over MMO-Champion or WoR by now. Hell, they were able to dig out stuff by the German video rating agency about WoW before Blizzcon.
If it were JoeRandomForumPoster, I would agree. However, Joanadark is the author of several very good and insightful posts on paladin tanking on the Blizz forum, including at least one very good guide. She's just about the last person I would expect to see that kind of bullshit from. Take that for whatever you think it's worth.
EDIT: Tracked down the "source" for the new blessing/seal. It's some posts by Lore and others in this thread at the maintankadin forum. Lore is also someone I'd consider generally reliable. Again, take that for whatever you think it's worth.
Also, people are saying the blessing is self-cast only, which I think is kind of unfortunate because it would be a neat thing Prot warriors would enjoy for shield slam threat.
Last edited by Cathela : 08/06/07 at 4:00 PM.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
This seems to be a pretty prevalent problem. I was tanking Magtheridon the other day, and had consistent problems getting close enough to him to hit him with Consecrate. Same for a late-night drunken MC clear, I actually had to stand in the lava to hit Rag with Consecrate. I've seen people report similar problems on Lurker, which wouldn't surprise me at all (I haven't tried tanking him yet).
It shows up on Voidreaver as well. Particularly annoying there because if you get too close to him he walks away a bit until you're well out of Consecration range, so it takes a few tries to find that sweet spot where you can stand and Consecrate him. Meanwhile the rest of the raid is getting pissed that you're moving him around.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
08/05/07, 1:00 AM
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