Perhaps it was silly that any raid tanking paladin automatically had infinite mana?


I'm not sure it changes things that drastically, either. Mana efficiency of Holy Shield/Seal + Judgements is pretty good. (Especially with Imp. Holy Shield - I missed that change earlier). Consecrate is the real mana burner, and you can downrank that effectively at the moment.


SoR is 260 mana. HS is 280 mana, Judgement is 140 mana, R1 Consecrate is 120 mana. Lets say we cast one of each every 10 seconds - 800 mana -> 80 MPS. To cover that with SA, you'd need to be taking 800 DPS. Base mana for a paladin is around 4000. To go from full MP to empty would take at least 5 cycles, or 50 seconds. I doubt you will have a string of parry/misses that last that long. And hey, now MP5 isn't a "wasted" stat on your gear.

Please, please don't give any devs who happen to read this the idea that we want MP5 to tank, even post-SA nerf.

And at some point Consecrate will get hit with the downrank nerf, just like every other spell in the game.

But yeah, I'm probably overselling how bad it is. I still hope they change it back; it's really unnecessary given the Illumination nerf and their obvious desire to improve paladin tanking.

Tanking nothing, any Paladin in a group with a Shadow Priest had mana coming out their tail end. I sincerely doubt they gave it a second thought in regards to tanking, and I don't think it'll be much of a change for anyone.

Though it sure does give Seal of Blood something to do now...

Must disagree with you Nico, this is quite a hit to the holy pally/s-priest synergy. Our longevity is great, but not unlimited. It does, however, turn Dark Runes into the mana-pot of choice. (Oh, Oh! What's that blessing that takes damage from the tank and deals it to me...)

For tanking, I feel it will take quite an amazing string of non-damage to burn through all our mana in a raid scenario. For 5-mans, however, this could be nasty, as there isn't as much damage coming in to start with.

This nerf will make some of our mis-itemised tank items more valuable now: Int on tanking plate ftw!

This is the pick of the bunch, imo. But they forgot one more thing that's needed "..and decreases the cooldown by 1/2 seconds". We will still be vunrable to crushes in the latency time between refreshing Holy Shield. And it's still on the GCD.

All in all I agree with the general rumors: big nerf to healers, minor buff to tanking.

BTW: Where did these notes come from?

From the test patch, they're legit.

These are the new stats (on Test right now) of T4/T5. The mana/5, she is gone!

Justicar Headgear
1080 AC
37 Stam
20 Int
yellow
meta
+4 dodge rating (socket bonus)
26 defense rating
20 dodge rating
22 +damage

Justicar Chestguard
1329 Armor
+42 Stamina
+27 Intellect
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 defense rating
Equip: Increases defense rating by +19
Equip: Increases Shield Block rating by +19
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 22.

Justicar Handguards (no change?)
831 Armor
+30 Stamina
+21 Intellect
Equip: Increases defense rating by +20
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 23.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 30.

Justicar Legguards
1163 Armor
+40 Stamina
+28 Intellect
Equip: Increases defense rating by +27
Equip: Increases parry rating by +27
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 32.

Justicar Shoulderguards
997 Armor
+33 Stamina
+12 Intellect
Blue Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by +12
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 15
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 22.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 23.


And here's T5

Crystalforge Faceguard
1227 Armor
+42 Stamina
+24 Intellect
Red Socket
Meta Socket
Socket Bonus: 6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by +24
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 15
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 33.
Equip: Increases block value of your shield by 35

Crystalforge Chestguard
1510 Armor
+48 Stamina
+23 Intellect
Red Socket
Yellow Socket
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Defense Rating
Durability 165 / 165
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases defense rating by +21
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 27.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 45.

Crystalforge Handguards
944 Armor
+36 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Equip: Increases defense rating by +24
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 19
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 27.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 27

Crystalforge Legguards
1322 Armor
+45 Stamina
+29 Intellect
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: 3 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by +31
Equip: Increases your shield block rating by 21
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 36.
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 30.
<aggravation: the healer pants socket is blue>

Crystalforge Shoulderguards
1133 Armor
+34 Stamina
+23 Intellect
Red Socket
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by +23
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 16
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 14.


Not quite as impressive as I first thought, and I was wrong about AC being buffed (I am, apparently, blind), but overall these are nice looking buffs.

Tier 5:
Crystalforge Chestguard
1510 AC
+48 Sta
+23 Int
1x Red
2x Yellow
Bonus: +4 Def
+24 Def Rating
+27 dmg/healing
+45 block value

Helm:
1227 AC
+42 Sta
+24 Int
1x Red
1x Meta
Bonus: +6 Sta

+24 Def. rating
+15 Shield Block Rating
+33 dmg/healing
+35 block value


Hands
944 AC
+36 Sta
+18 Int
+24 Def. Rating
+19 Shield Block rating
+27 dmg/healing
+27 block value


Legs
1322 AC
+48 Sta
+23 Int
1x Yellow
Bonus: +3 Sta
+31 Def. Rating
+21 Shield Block Rating
+36 dmg/healing
+30 block value


Shoulder
1133 AC
+34 Sta
+23 Int
2x Red
Bonus: +4 Sta
+23 Def. Rating
+16 Parry rating
+19 dmg/healing


Set bonuses seem to be the same as on live.

You can block attacks while your shield is sheathed on the PTR. I assume this applies to the cast animation as well, but I haven't tested it.

I have- this bug is 100% fixed.

Can you block during a heal now?

Just tested this- no.
It seems like any non castingbar spell still gives you full avoidance, while castingbars give you dodge/miss only still. I -could- be wrong on the hittable while consecrating but I got good enough at timing to replicate it fairly easily on Live and couldn't at all on Test.

Shame tho, AS is still more or less useless for sustained aggro.

Edit:
Btw Fjord, been a while, how are you liking the pally side of things?

If you can't get on the PTR, Improved Holy Shield is right next to Holy Shield with HS as a pre-req. It is not one tier lower as I initially thought it might be. There aren't any other point cost changes, only what's in the notes for actual talent changes.

Hmm. That's looking like 16/33/12 for me in that case. Illumination loss would still sting a bit, but less so than it would right now. At least it gets me 1% more parry and 2 second shorter Judgement cooldown, and of course Improved Holy Shield.

I'll need to feel out the new version of Ardent Defender though a few times though before I set my mind on it, and weigh the advantages of Spiritual Focus versus the now 'fixed' Improved Seal of Righteousness; though I'm erring towards Spiritual Focus (Aggro already getting a pretty large boost through Improved Holy Shield). The changes to Avenger's Shield don't really make a difference in it's desirability to me; it'd be more interesting perhaps if it (and Holy Shield) had some kind of scaling with your block value.

I'm still largely in favor of condensing our talents a bit more though, especially in the early parts of our talent trees. Combine some talents that buff things you wouldn't be doing at the same time anyway. Like, say, combining Spiritual Focus and Deflection into a single talent, that kind of stuff.

Hm erm... dunno what they did to fix the 0% block while casting instants, but some seconds ago I blocked an attack while I had the shield on my back, just aggroed the mob and didnt use AA.

edit:
here we go. it's german, but you'll see what i mean
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1642/blockia6.jpg

Rank 1 consecrate ticking for 38-39 damage with 513 spell damage on. Looks like that downranking nerf finally caught up. Other ranks for math at a later time:
2 - 54
3 - 72
4 - 96
5 - 109
6 - 125

edit: including 5/5 1h spec

Boom, there it is, and now it looks like the SA nerf is really going to hurt our threat generation.

Well, at least Mitigation went up, the 0% bug fix + 8 block charge per 10 sec paired with the new AD (wich i like more than the old anyway..). Definatly puts us the tank of choice on fast hitting bosses.

I guess now the waiting game continues

With 270 +dmg, R1 was ticking for 24. With JotC, it was ticking for 59. (+295 JotC from libram, Glad. gloves, and imp. JotC talent)

Base damage of 8 DPS, or 64 over 8 seconds.

16 DPS/128 bonus damage from 270 +dmg -> 47%
35 DPS/280 bonus damage from 295 +Holy (JotC) -> 95~%

More reason to have a Ret paladin? = P


EDIT:
Here's some quick math, using your numbers:
R1: 120 mana, 8 DPS base -> 47%, .39DPM per 100 +dmg
R2: 205 mana, 15 DPS base -> 61%, .30DPM per 100 +dmg
R3: 290 mana, 24 DPS base -> 75%, .26DPM per 100 +dmg
R4: 390 mana, 35 DPS base -> 95%, .24DPM per 100 +dmg
R5: 505 mana, 48 DPS base -> 95%, .18DPM per 100 +dmg
R6: 660 mana, 64 DPS base -> 95%, .14DPM per 100 +dmg


R1 still costs next to nothing (and with JotC, adds 60~ish DPS in my gear), and boasts a solid DPM for single targets. R4 seems to be the sweet spot for scaling and downranking though.

Well, we are definatly better than we used to be (after the patch) but we still have the "we're not there yet feeling" and that's the main reason to not be super happy about it.

I don't have enough Talent points to include Imp SoR, i won't use BoSanc over Kings. And as much as i'd like to dump 5 points into 1h spec... i still put those 5 points in Imp Devo aura even though it sucks. Mitigation is still mitigation, and each little armor i can get right now makes my stam a bit more valuable.

Until my guild leader asks us (as in Paladins) for one of us to spec Prot specifically - we won't ever "be there".

And truthfully I can't see that ever happening with the absolutely monstrous numbers Warriors/Druids are putting up, and our complete lack of tanking tools and synergy.

Well I think I notice a lot of "We can't act like we like the changes because we will stop getting any if they think we're satisfied" sort of sentiment and I can understand that.

What is "there" though? I think there's a fine line where if we cross it, paladin tanking will be better in general than warrior tanking. I think it's very difficult to balance. I think Blizzard wants to make "standard" tank fights where a warrior's ~= paladin ~= druid in tanking. And then add some "warrior" fights, "paladin" fights, and "druid" fights.

With these changes paladins have pulled a clear lead in terms of "fast hitting" fights. The reality is we will not be crushed. With the fixes to our instants screwing our blocking, and 8 blocks/10 seconds, we will not be crushed. These are on fights where warriors will.

We're 1200 hps behind warriors, but on any fight where we take 3 hits or more to kill us before death we will run into AD. In an extreme best case scenario on hard hitting mobs is a mob hitting you for 49% of your health, you getting healed to >34% <35% you'll have an additional ~15% hit points. In a smaller hitting situation, where AD is reasonably triggered, we'll have an additional 15% hit points. As hits go towards ~4 hits till death AD is reasonably reliable. At 18k HP, 15% HPs provide 2700, which makes up for the defeceit.

We're still 4% behind in general mitigation.

I'll have to look hard at my talents now. I probably wont end up getting imp SoR. I will use BoSanc, because Kings doesn't preclude you from getting sanc. I'm not always the only paladin in the raid. If I am I will get kings instead of course.

I have 3 points into imp devo right now, I have 5 in 1h spec. I'll probably use the changes to move some stuff around.

I don't quite understand the reasoning of "Our threat is getting nerfed" while we're getting many threat buffs through talents, but being unwilling to take them. Especially for a marginal increase in armor.

In any situation where you need to be absolute max mitigation to survive, the SA nerf is not going to impact your threat generation. If squeaking out every drop of survival is necessary, then you'll be taking so much damage that you wont be able to spend it fast enough.

If you're specced for max defense and you're finding it difficult to maintain threat without SA hitting you on overheals, (IE tanking trivial content) then you'll have to do what warriors have to do and nerf your gear in order to take some more damage and get more blue rage.

I don't get a lot of overhealing specifically for mana concerns. I'm sure other people use that as a tactic, but it's not something that we've done. I would see it as more difficult to, say OT gruul, as you'd have to stand in caveins or whatnot to maintain mana. But I don't mind not being the primary secondary-aggro choice.

I suppose I do agree that we're not quite "there" yet. But we're a hell of a lot closer to "there" than we were at 2.0, which was a lot closer than 1.9, and maybe we'll get there by 2.1.5?


OTOH I do think that in order for us to really earn a place in many people's minds as main tanks, we'll need to be slightly overpowered for a while, so that people actually WANT to use us over a warrior. Even if we were 100% parallel, most people would just choose warrior anyways because that's what they're used to, and it has always worked. We're maybe 90% now, but 110% on certain encounters.

Will that be enough? I don't think so. But who knows, maybe I'll be the preferred tank on prince or something now.

Baby steps I guess.

/agree

Minor buffs are just that, minor. They have no real impact on our ability to MT in 25 man content. Sure it makes tanking Kharazan and Heroics a bit easier, but we were already fine there.

Our HP is still significantly lower than a warrior or druid.
We still have no way to effectively reduce the incoming damage (demo shout, tclap, disarm).


Bottom line.. a warrior or a druid tank will still be preferred in virtually every MT situation.

I somewhat disagree with this.

What your guild leader does has no impact on the class. What sort of numbers are the warriors and druids putting up? Threat numbers? Health? What good is health if you're taking 15% crushes?

If the tank classes are indeed balanced, and your warriors and druids are awesome, why would your guild leader ask one of his well geared healing paladins to spec into tanking, displacing one of your already awesome tanks, and forcing you to regear?

If paladins are to the point that your guild leader is asking you to stop what you're already set up for, take up tanking, and replace a warrior or a druid who's already geared for it, and fulfilling the role, then I would say that they're slightly overbalanced.

It is very guild-dependant in my opinion.

In my guild we have no feral druids but alts. The ones we had left come TBC. Paladins have been filling that role for us currently. We're somewhat relied upon. My gear is up to par, and what I tank I do well. My threat is up to par as well, as long as I'm taking damage.

When we are "There" in my opinion is when I'm not at all worried that the guild might feel the need recruit or bring up a warrior/druid to fill my role and ask me to respec healing.

If we're in a situation where the guild leader is asking an experienced healing paladin to respec tanking and an experienced feral druid or prot warrior to step down and let him take the tank slot, then we're too far. In my opinion.