Shiv in End-Game

blacktides1337 · 03/24/07, 6:58 PM

Currently I am going with Shiv as my primary attack for end-game.
I am curious, I've been hearing that Shiv is not as good for end-game as previously thought.

I've been browsing and haven't seen any comments on this, was wondering if anyone could lay down some facts for me.

To me, it seems viable, while most times Shiv is going to do less damage than SS, it costs less energy and with combat potency gives the rogue a way to regen extra energy, which ultimately nets more combo points and more shiv attacks.

The only downside to Shiv I can really see is the unreliability on cycles. Given that since the energy regain is going to vary between having endless energy to never procing, most of the time I'm spanning shiv, watching my SnD and whenever it runs out, refreshing and more spam Shiving.

Apate · 03/24/07, 7:00 PM

What sort of DPS with what sort of gear are you seeing?

Reveille · 03/24/07, 7:05 PM

Check http://rogue.bleedo.net/

There's a spreadsheet that examines shiv versus SS.

blacktides1337 · 03/24/07, 10:34 PM

Thanks for the info. Didn't quite see that link.
Sorry about the double post as well.

loki · 03/25/07, 7:03 PM

ooh a new version of the spreadsheet, nice

btw It doesnt actually model Shiv.

Q: I have this awesome build where I use shiv instead of Sinister Strike, is shiv going to be modeled?
A: No, Shiv is not competitive enough with Sinister Strike to worry about modeling. It might work as a pvp build, but will not perform that great as a pve build.

Kalman · 03/25/07, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by loki

ooh a new version of the spreadsheet, nice

btw It doesnt actually model Shiv.

The main sheet does not.

The "Sinister Strike vs. Shiv comparison" sheet at the bottom of the linked page does.

Zoro · 03/26/07, 12:57 PM

My personal take from the process that evolved that spreadsheet is that when you just hit 70, if you want to go out of your way to choose a spec that favours Shiv over SS you can get better returns whilst soloing from Shiv than SS as a main attack.

Grouping, raiding, anything beyond just hit 70 and SS wins.

Shiv is still worthwhile for utility purposes. DP in group/raid still outperforms IP. Using Shiv to maintain a 5 stack when I've been the only DP rogue 'feels' like it gives better returns than simply mindless SS spamming.

Of course, what's really needed is a mod that accurately displays the last time you laid down a DP application and the time remaining till the stack expires. But that's another topic entirely....

Khosh · 03/27/07, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Zoro

Of course, what's really needed is a mod that accurately displays the last time you laid down a DP application and the time remaining till the stack expires. But that's another topic entirely....

I think this is what you are after?
http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=5366.0

TickToxin: Basic countdown bars for your Deadly, Mind-Numbing and Wound Poison applications. Bar refreshes with each new proc.

Zoro · 03/27/07, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by Khosh

I think this is what you are after?
http://www.wowace.com/forums/index.php?topic=5366.0

TickToxin is good, and a very good step in the right direction, but...

The bugs in it annoy me and the resist one in particular means you can't use it as a definitive tool to keep a DP stack going without watching for exactly the same things you watch for un-modded anyway.

If the bugs get fixed - it'll be the bee's knees.

Melnor · 03/27/07, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by blacktides1337

Currently I am going with Shiv as my primary attack for end-game.
I am curious, I've been hearing that Shiv is not as good for end-game as previously thought.

I've been browsing and haven't seen any comments on this, was wondering if anyone could lay down some facts for me.

To me, it seems viable, while most times Shiv is going to do less damage than SS, it costs less energy and with combat potency gives the rogue a way to regen extra energy, which ultimately nets more combo points and more shiv attacks.

The only downside to Shiv I can really see is the unreliability on cycles. Given that since the energy regain is going to vary between having endless energy to never procing, most of the time I'm spanning shiv, watching my SnD and whenever it runs out, refreshing and more spam Shiving.

So what did the spreadsheet tell you regarding shiv vs ss?

tsigo · 03/27/07, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Zoro

TickToxin is good, and a very good step in the right direction, but...

The bugs in it annoy me and the resist one in particular means you can't use it as a definitive tool to keep a DP stack going without watching for exactly the same things you watch for un-modded anyway.

If the bugs get fixed - it'll be the bee's knees.

Just fixed the resist one, should be much more accurate now.