Curse of Weakness

Razzo · 03/26/07, 11:29 AM

Hey u guys,

I've been reading your forums lately and sees ome interesting things. Now I have a question about one of my Curses and what the title revealed, its the the Curse of Weakness.

Actually I want to know what impact 350 lesser AP has on a boss encounter on lets say Maiden of Virtue. I havent been able to pick up a formula which explains what the diffrence between Boss AP and player AP is, but I heard there is a difference.

Reason I ask is because my MT ask for CoW on Maiden and i think to myself, I've always used CoA, why this sudden switch in curses. I understand the Maiden would hit less hard and spare some heals from the healers, but is it that much of a difference?

Hope u can help me out

Thanks in advance!

Nezralix · 03/26/07, 11:34 AM

It should be somewhere in the neighborhood of a 10% damage reduction.

Demi9OD · 03/26/07, 1:11 PM

Tests at 60 proved the maximum amount of damage reduced by AP debuffs was around 30%. I've not done any formal testing but my guess is that while that has not changed, the amount of AP needed to reduce 30% of a mobs melee damage has increased by quite a bit.

Clearly a talented demo shout is the AP debuff of choice, but on pulls, and when establishing agro on very hard hitting mobs, CoW can save lives. Since it generates no threat, outside of putting you on the mob's agro list, it's primary use in PVE is applying it right as the tank pulls, to lessen the damage he takes for the initial few seconds, when all his rage and universal cooldowns need to be spent generating enough threat to hold the mob through the initial heals. After those first few precious seconds though, you can easily let the tank know to start demo shouting as you apply a more dps friendly curse.

Razzo · 03/26/07, 1:35 PM

My MT has specced in Imp. Demo Shout, so does that one stack with CoW?
And what about fast hitting mobs vs. slow hitting mobs. Any advantage in using it on either?

Demi9OD · 03/26/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Razzo

My MT has specced in Imp. Demo Shout, so does that one stack with CoW?
And what about fast hitting mobs vs. slow hitting mobs. Any advantage in using it on either?

They do not stack, the more powerful debuff will overwrite the weaker one. AP debuffs have anyways been a flat % reduction in damage, and the speed at which the mob attacks plays no part in that. AP debuffs are particularly powerful against targets with instant attacks though, such as mortal strike, cleave, and whirlwind. I remember in early Gothik attempts the difference demo shout made on dead side whirlwinds was absotely massive, reducing the damage on leather from 2300 to around 1700.

Here is the original demo shout thread: Demoralizing shout et al.

Dots · 03/26/07, 9:43 PM

edit: included false info.

Insect · 03/29/07, 2:18 AM

I had an experiance with the stacking of CoW and Demo shout on our early attempts on Maulgar (i've respecced since and havn't been watching to see if it still works this way).

I don't know if the debuffs were accually taking effect but the debuff icons were definitely on there at the same time.

How it worked was(I had 5/5 imp demo at the time)
If CoW was up first, Demo would knock it off.
If Demo was up first, you could apply CoW and they would both stay up for thier durations.
I could even keep reapplying Demo before the 30 second duration was over and it wouldn't not knock off CoW.

Razzo · 03/29/07, 2:59 AM

That could be true. I havent had the time to check it, but my MT says it stays on, but sometimes have to reapply it before the timer is out on CoW. If they stack when both applied I don't know, but it might be worth finding out!

Demi9OD · 03/29/07, 9:18 AM

Insect did you mean Demo Shout instead of TC? Of course Thunderclap and Curse of Weakness should stack.

Myonax · 03/29/07, 1:51 PM

I have currently Spec Improved CoW to help out the raid until we catch up in progression. None of our tanks are speced Improved demo. For the record it will immediately overwrite Demo shot but TC stays up as it obviously should. One of the down side of me having imp CoW is now our tanks get a bit lazy, they don't even bother with demo shout. This can be problematic if I am dead or otherwise engaged with other responsibilities. My opinion is from a raid perspective it seems silly that warlocks should give up raid DPS (CoE,CoS, Agony/Doom) when a warrior only has to give up a little rage. I wish improved Demo wasn't a 5 point talent vs a 2 point talent for a lock.

Someone should write a Mod for healers/raid leaders that checks if the main tank target has all the useful raid debuffs on him. The downside of the new debuff slots is it can be difficult to identify at a glance if the important debuffs are active.

Demo/Weakness
TC
Misery
CoS/CoE
Shadow Weaving
Serpent Sting (your Mutilate rouges will love you)

Insect · 03/29/07, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

Insect did you mean Demo Shout instead of TC? Of course Thunderclap and Curse of Weakness should stack.

Blah, yes replace all the TC with Demo shout lol.

Edit: Fixed, ty

Necrotoid · 03/29/07, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

I have currently Spec Improved CoW to help out the raid until we catch up in progression. None of our tanks are speced Improved demo. For the record it will immediately overwrite Demo shot but TC stays up as it obviously should. One of the down side of me having imp CoW is now our tanks get a bit lazy, they don't even bother with demo shout. This can be problematic if I am dead or otherwise engaged with other responsibilities. My opinion is from a raid perspective it seems silly that warlocks should give up raid DPS (CoE,CoS, Agony/Doom) when a warrior only has to give up a little rage. I wish improved Demo wasn't a 5 point talent vs a 2 point talent for a lock.

Someone should write a Mod for healers/raid leaders that checks if the main tank target has all the useful raid debuffs on him. The downside of the new debuff slots is it can be difficult to identify at a glance if the important debuffs are active.

Demo/Weakness
TC
Misery
CoS/CoE
Shadow Weaving
Serpent Sting (your Mutilate rouges will love you)

There is a mod called Debuff Filter which allows you to display (in a separate window / frame) specific debuffs you wish to monitor. I use it to make sure Curse of Tongues is up on Mag adds, for example.

Lord BEEF · 03/29/07, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Razzo

Hey u guys,

Hope u can help me out

As tiring as it is to type out the extra two letters I'm amazed you lacked the endurance to spell it out as your second word of your first sentence

Kyth · 03/29/07, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Necrotoid

There is a mod called Debuff Filter which allows you to display (in a separate window / frame) specific debuffs you wish to monitor. I use it to make sure Curse of Tongues is up on Mag adds, for example.

It also optionally shows you the debuff count; useful for those times when you have a lot of locks and shadow priests show up, and you need to know when to tell the raid to stop using lower-priority debuffs/dots.

Darkmgl · 03/30/07, 6:43 PM

The following is with 5/5 Improved Demo and non upgraded CoW.

I've experienced the same situations of CoW and Imp Demo stacking. From the tests we did, as long as the CoW is on before the demo, Improved Demo will go on without knocking off the CoW. What we found is it does not work the other way around, if you Imp Demo before CoW is on, CoW will not apply. As for refreshing, you can refresh the CoW as long as you recast it before it fades, as once it fades it will not let you reapply CoW.

The real test someone needs to do is determining if they are actually both decreasing damage. I haven't had the chance to parse damage with stacked CoW + Demo vs unstacked to tell if they are both working or just one is working.