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03/30/07, 10:34 PM
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#16
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Protector
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Darkmgl
The following is with 5/5 Improved Demo and non upgraded CoW.
I've experienced the same situations of CoW and Imp Demo stacking. From the tests we did, as long as the CoW is on before the demo, Improved Demo will go on without knocking off the CoW. What we found is it does not work the other way around, if you Imp Demo before CoW is on, CoW will not apply. As for refreshing, you can refresh the CoW as long as you recast it before it fades, as once it fades it will not let you reapply CoW.
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This is a similar bug as the old Mongoose/Agility pot, where if you used the agility then mongoose pot it would give you 2 buff icons, but only buff agility once.
While you see 2 buffs/debuffs, only the highest effect is actually doing something, because they are the same type of buff/debuff.
If your tanks don't like putting up Demo Shout, then imp CoW is a nice talent.
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04/29/07, 12:14 AM
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#17
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dots
From my somewhat limited tests using Beast lore on lvl 73 scorpions and The Lurker Below, Demo Shout (-300 AP) seems to be ~14% melee damage reduction. Improved DS (-420 AP) was around 20%, as expected. Unless you have Imp CoW and the warrior does not have Imp DS, he should always be using Demo so you can use a different curse instead.
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Recently, I was doing some own tests on this matter (using Beast Lore to observe effects of Demo Roar, Screech and later Improved Demo Roar) - basically to predict the effect of an added CoW on Maulgar. Surprisingly, my tests seemed to indicate a possible hardcap for AP reduction on mobs. (Test was done on Uvuros - level 70 elite quest mob in Shadowmoon Valley.)
* Base Damage: ----------------------------- 2272-3214 --------- Average: 2743
* Screech (-210ap): ------------------------- 2002-2944 --------- Average: 2473 [-9.84%]
* Demoralizing Roar (-248ap): ------------- 1953-2895 --------- Average: 2424 [-11.63%]
* Improved Demoralizing Roar (-347ap): - 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]
* Screech + Demoralizing Roar: ----------- 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]
* Screech + Improved Demoralizing Roar: 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]
This goes in line with the results from some less intensive testing on a regular level 70 and a regular level 73 mob indicating a maximum reduction of ~14.4% with stacked Demo Roar and Screech - CoW alone yielded the same damage reduction.
I hope there's a flaw in my experiment and no hardcap of ~300ap reduction as this would render Improved CoW or Imp. Demo Shout/Roar useless of pve. If there are other tests that gave higher results, please post them here.
Thanks in advance 
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04/29/07, 12:49 AM
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#18
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Aszune (EU)
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The previously observed caps at 30% wasn't exactly a true 30% cap, it could also be explained by "reducing more atk than the mob actually has".
You could kind of see it via pets at level 60 (pre-scaling). About 30% of their dps came from atk, the rest came innately. This could be concidence, maybe wasn't, and actaully was related to the npc formulae, I donno. Anyhow if you look at the same thing now at unscaled level 70 pets, atk contributes for 18.5% of their dps.
Which could mean that the "% dmg from atk" ratio got changed in tbc. Or, more than likely, it's different for different models. I wouldn't discard your data, but unfortunately I cannot confirm/deny since my dru and hunter are on the same account.
And lastly, the one big bonus for using cow instead of demo shout has to do with model size. Demo is near impossible to keep up on certain fights due to hitbox + strange resists. On huge models with huge hitboxes, demo shout has to hit the "center" of the model (don't ask why, maybe it's an ae-specific thing), whereas cow only has to hit the "edge". I haven't raided in tbc for various reasons, but Maexxna was the textbook example of this.
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04/29/07, 1:16 AM
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#19
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Aszune (EU)
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Ergh, hate two posts in a row, but I now think I may understand some of the confusion.
atk debuffs were never a flat %. As in, you cannot come up with a formula that shows X atk = 1% less dmg, or anything like that. The reason behind this is, just like for players, npc damage seems to come from two stats, a "base damage" stat, and then additional dmg added from atk. A quick look at any pet window will tell you this.
Thus, there's no reason to believe that -300 atk will do the same thing across different mobs. For example, one could create a mob with basedmg 1000 and 0 atk -- demo shout would do 0. One could also create a mob with basedmg 0 and 10000 atk -- demo shout would reduce dmg by 3%.
The tests at 60 pretty much proved this. Doing identical debuffs to two different mobs resulted in two different %'s mitigated, the differences being outside rounding error. It just so happened that just about all mobs were in the same ballpark at 60.
Thus the data on Ulvros and the data from lurker below really don't disagree with eachother. Especially in 5-man grpmobs, which clearly had to go through a 2nd tuning cycle, whereas raidtrash generally would not (you can expect demo in a raid, you can't in a 5man).
Lastly, even if there were a global cap of -300atk (which I don't necessarily buy), that still would not render imp demo/cow useless. As good as screech is, it's really not useable on most fights out there. So you'd still be getting a bonus (248 -> 300), though possibly you'd only need 3/5 instead of 5/5.
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04/29/07, 1:22 AM
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#20
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Glass Joe
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On a related note, I feel like I am having an "Onyxia Deep Breathes More" experience with demo shout. What I "remember" is that demo shout resists were rare until the last rolling maintenance window. I get an SCT notice for resist, and also use debuff filter, so it's very very obvious. And no...I haven't empirically tested it. I thought I might camp on this thread and ask:
Has anyone noticed a more frequent resist rate on demo shout, but no apparent change on TC? Said another way, I'm looking for some confirmation (or lack thereof before I go spool up a test).
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04/29/07, 1:28 AM
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#21
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Druid
Earthen Ring (EU)
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Improved Demoralising shout, Screech, Curse of Recklessness = still more than 300 ap down.. and CoR is pretty huge for physical damage. hmm.
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04/29/07, 1:36 AM
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#22
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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Originally Posted by dojke
atk debuffs were never a flat %. As in, you cannot come up with a formula that shows X atk = 1% less dmg, or anything like that.
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This is an interesting assumption giving the almost linear AP-to-Damage_reduced ratio. I can also mention that the differences between Uvuros (70, elite) and the tested cat (70, normal) are within a range of 0.1%, while the reduction for the tested scorpid (73, normal) was significant lower (the ceiling appears at the same point though [Screech -9.5%, regular Demo -11.0%, CoW -14.4%, stacked Screech + regular Demo -14.4%] - interpolating yields a needed AP reduction of ~325 at that point).
I have to admit that the damage range on those regular mobs was rather narrow, so the actual values might be a bit off, but i still feel that the tendency is observable.
I might have picked an unlucky sample, so i'm looking forward to some other values from different mobs/encounters.
And while druids might still profit from Imp. Demo Roar, warriors (and warlocks) would not 
Last edited by Ikajo : 04/29/07 at 1:49 AM.
Reason: Typo
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04/29/07, 4:11 AM
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#23
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Aszune (EU)
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Originally Posted by Ikajo
This is an interesting assumption giving the almost linear AP-to-Damage_reduced ratio.
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Perhaps I phrased it wrong. My tests at 60 shows that for a particular mob, it is linear. This is quite expected, going along with the "stat multiplier" idea of elites. So this agrees with what you have.
However, although linear, the slope of this line is not the same across different mobs. The reason behind this is due to the example I gave earlier, that it depends on exactly what proportion of dmg is sourced via atk, vs. base_dmg.
So in summary, a clarification:
You can easily come up with a mob-specific X atk = 1% reduction ratio, it is linear.
You cannot come up with a non-mob-specific X atk = 1% reduction, since it is mob dependent.
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04/29/07, 8:53 AM
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#24
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Kor'gall (EU)
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Would the data still support the existence of a cap way below the old 30%-ceiling you observed for level 60 (regardless of how much ap reduction would be needed to reach it)? Just wondering if its worth to talk with tanks about speccing Imp. Demo Shout when its only effect would be to even CoR out
Maybe i can get some hunter to join up for some heroic Underbog and check how the effects work on Ghaz'an.
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04/29/07, 10:17 PM
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#25
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Turalyon
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Originally Posted by Razzo
Reason I ask is because my MT ask for CoW on Maiden and i think to myself, I've always used CoA, why this sudden switch in curses. I understand the Maiden would hit less hard and spare some heals from the healers, but is it that much of a difference?
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One particular issue with the Maiden of Virtue is that it can be annoying to get in a Demoralizing Shout between the brief silences from her Holy Ground ability. It isn't impossible by any means, but is more maintenance-intensive than a warlock keeping up a two minute curse.
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04/30/07, 12:05 AM
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#26
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Evil Nazi Archeologist
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Originally Posted by Razzo
Hey u guys,
I've been reading your forums lately and sees ome interesting things. Now I have a question about one of my Curses and what the title revealed, its the the Curse of Weakness.
Actually I want to know what impact 350 lesser AP has on a boss encounter on lets say Maiden of Virtue. I havent been able to pick up a formula which explains what the diffrence between Boss AP and player AP is, but I heard there is a difference.
Reason I ask is because my MT ask for CoW on Maiden and i think to myself, I've always used CoA, why this sudden switch in curses. I understand the Maiden would hit less hard and spare some heals from the healers, but is it that much of a difference?
Hope u can help me out
Thanks in advance!
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"u" is not a word. I didn't give an infraction because the the rest of your post is fine, but please refrain from using "u" anymore.
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04/30/07, 3:25 AM
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#27
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Don Flamenco
Pandaren Warrior
Dentarg (EU)
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Great that you discover this only 1 month after someone else made the same remark.
Anyways, Ikajo, I specifically used lvl 73 mobs because I figured AP would most likely increase with mob level. Not sure how meaningful the numbers from the lvl 73 scorpion test are, but I would expect most melee raid bosses to behave similar to lurker. Even more so because both tests had very similar results.
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04/30/07, 3:31 AM
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#28
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Ravencrest (EU)
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Edit: Please disregard this post, didn't look close enough at the results.
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04/30/07, 5:21 AM
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#29
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Von Kaiser
Human Warlock
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
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We use CoW a lot these days because of it's high damage reduction.
On prince I apply CoW in phase 2 due to the high damage he puts out. This allow the tank to use his HP shout. I then replace it in phase 3 to increase the DPS. The maiden is a good example where your healers can be locked out of combat for a long time. Reducing maidens physical damage can safe your tank.
Talk to tanks and healers if they need any help with healing due to the bosses high damage. If that is the case then putting up a CoW so the tank HP shout might a good idea.
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04/30/07, 5:39 AM
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#30
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Don Flamenco
Pandaren Warrior
Dentarg (EU)
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Demo Shout has nothing to do with Commanding or Battle Shout. Only those 2 are actual buffs and a warrior can only buff either of those 2 for their group.
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