This is a similar bug as the old Mongoose/Agility pot, where if you used the agility then mongoose pot it would give you 2 buff icons, but only buff agility once.

While you see 2 buffs/debuffs, only the highest effect is actually doing something, because they are the same type of buff/debuff.


If your tanks don't like putting up Demo Shout, then imp CoW is a nice talent.

The previously observed caps at 30% wasn't exactly a true 30% cap, it could also be explained by "reducing more atk than the mob actually has".

You could kind of see it via pets at level 60 (pre-scaling). About 30% of their dps came from atk, the rest came innately. This could be concidence, maybe wasn't, and actaully was related to the npc formulae, I donno. Anyhow if you look at the same thing now at unscaled level 70 pets, atk contributes for 18.5% of their dps.

Which could mean that the "% dmg from atk" ratio got changed in tbc. Or, more than likely, it's different for different models. I wouldn't discard your data, but unfortunately I cannot confirm/deny since my dru and hunter are on the same account.

And lastly, the one big bonus for using cow instead of demo shout has to do with model size. Demo is near impossible to keep up on certain fights due to hitbox + strange resists. On huge models with huge hitboxes, demo shout has to hit the "center" of the model (don't ask why, maybe it's an ae-specific thing), whereas cow only has to hit the "edge". I haven't raided in tbc for various reasons, but Maexxna was the textbook example of this.

Ergh, hate two posts in a row, but I now think I may understand some of the confusion.

atk debuffs were never a flat %. As in, you cannot come up with a formula that shows X atk = 1% less dmg, or anything like that. The reason behind this is, just like for players, npc damage seems to come from two stats, a "base damage" stat, and then additional dmg added from atk. A quick look at any pet window will tell you this.

Thus, there's no reason to believe that -300 atk will do the same thing across different mobs. For example, one could create a mob with basedmg 1000 and 0 atk -- demo shout would do 0. One could also create a mob with basedmg 0 and 10000 atk -- demo shout would reduce dmg by 3%.

The tests at 60 pretty much proved this. Doing identical debuffs to two different mobs resulted in two different %'s mitigated, the differences being outside rounding error. It just so happened that just about all mobs were in the same ballpark at 60.

Thus the data on Ulvros and the data from lurker below really don't disagree with eachother. Especially in 5-man grpmobs, which clearly had to go through a 2nd tuning cycle, whereas raidtrash generally would not (you can expect demo in a raid, you can't in a 5man).

Lastly, even if there were a global cap of -300atk (which I don't necessarily buy), that still would not render imp demo/cow useless. As good as screech is, it's really not useable on most fights out there. So you'd still be getting a bonus (248 -> 300), though possibly you'd only need 3/5 instead of 5/5.

On a related note, I feel like I am having an "Onyxia Deep Breathes More" experience with demo shout. What I "remember" is that demo shout resists were rare until the last rolling maintenance window. I get an SCT notice for resist, and also use debuff filter, so it's very very obvious. And no...I haven't empirically tested it. I thought I might camp on this thread and ask:

Has anyone noticed a more frequent resist rate on demo shout, but no apparent change on TC? Said another way, I'm looking for some confirmation (or lack thereof before I go spool up a test).

This is an interesting assumption giving the almost linear AP-to-Damage_reduced ratio. I can also mention that the differences between Uvuros (70, elite) and the tested cat (70, normal) are within a range of 0.1%, while the reduction for the tested scorpid (73, normal) was significant lower (the ceiling appears at the same point though [Screech -9.5%, regular Demo -11.0%, CoW -14.4%, stacked Screech + regular Demo -14.4%] - interpolating yields a needed AP reduction of ~325 at that point).
I have to admit that the damage range on those regular mobs was rather narrow, so the actual values might be a bit off, but i still feel that the tendency is observable.

I might have picked an unlucky sample, so i'm looking forward to some other values from different mobs/encounters.

And while druids might still profit from Imp. Demo Roar, warriors (and warlocks) would not

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. My tests at 60 shows that for a particular mob, it is linear. This is quite expected, going along with the "stat multiplier" idea of elites. So this agrees with what you have.

However, although linear, the slope of this line is not the same across different mobs. The reason behind this is due to the example I gave earlier, that it depends on exactly what proportion of dmg is sourced via atk, vs. base_dmg.

So in summary, a clarification:

You can easily come up with a mob-specific X atk = 1% reduction ratio, it is linear.
You cannot come up with a non-mob-specific X atk = 1% reduction, since it is mob dependent.

Would the data still support the existence of a cap way below the old 30%-ceiling you observed for level 60 (regardless of how much ap reduction would be needed to reach it)? Just wondering if its worth to talk with tanks about speccing Imp. Demo Shout when its only effect would be to even CoR out

Maybe i can get some hunter to join up for some heroic Underbog and check how the effects work on Ghaz'an.

"u" is not a word. I didn't give an infraction because the the rest of your post is fine, but please refrain from using "u" anymore.

Great that you discover this only 1 month after someone else made the same remark.

Anyways, Ikajo, I specifically used lvl 73 mobs because I figured AP would most likely increase with mob level. Not sure how meaningful the numbers from the lvl 73 scorpion test are, but I would expect most melee raid bosses to behave similar to lurker. Even more so because both tests had very similar results.

Edit: Please disregard this post, didn't look close enough at the results.

Demo Shout has nothing to do with Commanding or Battle Shout. Only those 2 are actual buffs and a warrior can only buff either of those 2 for their group.