Curse of Weakness - Page 3

Kahra · 10/23/07, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lairek

I wanted to do as you said, but unfortunately there is no pet-info page for enslaved pets. (Although I could have svorn i´ve seen one before.....)

You need an addon that enables the pet-info screen for enslaved demons (if I remember correctly, it is called EnslaveFix).

jludman · 10/26/07, 4:13 PM

It would be great to have some specific data including Curse of Recklessness. The armor debuff provided by CoR is very powerful, and it seems like it is possible to use other talents to completely negate its negative +AP side effect. It seems to me that a good goal to shoot for is minimizing the inconvenience to the other utility providers (talent points in imp demo, CoW or requiring a suboptimal pet for screech), while still completely negating the +AP effect of CoR.

Jorre · 11/06/07, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by jludman

It would be great to have some specific data including Curse of Recklessness. The armor debuff provided by CoR is very powerful, and it seems like it is possible to use other talents to completely negate its negative +AP side effect. It seems to me that a good goal to shoot for is minimizing the inconvenience to the other utility providers (talent points in imp demo, CoW or requiring a suboptimal pet for screech), while still completely negating the +AP effect of CoR.

On the suboptimal pet issue,
I'm using a bat with Screech with my SV hunter. The spec works great with the gftt talent, my pet usually has focus to spare. If I were a BM hunter I'd probably not sacrifice my pet to get a debuff on bosses, but I'm not as dependant on my pet as a BM hunter dps wise.

There is one other thing that is negative about using screech tho, the pet make a lot of noise. There are people in my raid guild getting seriously annoyed by the noise. There usually is cheering among the rogues and tanks if it dies.

The armor reduction from CoR makes up for using a suboptimal pet.

galzohar · 11/06/07, 11:46 AM

Remember it's not just the pet DPS loss, it's the pet DPS loss + warlock DPS loss. Their SUM needs to be lower than the physical DPS increase from CoR and that's assuming the AP of the boss actually remains the same and can't get any lower if you wouldn't use CoR, about which I've yet to see something verified.

Wug · 11/25/07, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by Lairek

I´m sorry sepulture, but i have some bad news.

I wanted to do as you said, but unfortunately there is no pet-info page for enslaved pets. (Although I could have svorn i´ve seen one before.....)

anyways, got some more raw data for the "what does -ap give me" study.

Target: lvl 71 aether-ray

257-356 cor 5 (+135)
251-350 cor 4 (+90)
247-346 cor 3 (+65)
244-344 cor 2 (+45)
241-340 cor 1 (+20)
238-337 base dmg
235-334 cow 1 (-21)
232-331 cow 2 (-41)
229-328 cow 3 (-64)
226-325 cow 4 (-82)
220-320 cow 5 (-123)
214-314 cow 6 (-163)
201-300 cow 7 (-257)
196-296 cow 8 (-350)

I wonder, could you use a pet in a duel to check the AP? a voidwalker has around 258 AP at lvl 70.

Hi all. I'm new to the forums, but I thought I'd chime in here because the results of this investigation interest me considerably.

I created a linear model based on Lairek's data. Assume an equation:

y = mx + b

where y = average mob damage,
b = mob's average damage when no AP modifier is applied,
x = AP modifier,
and m = amount of damage mob loses or gains do an AP modifier being applied.

Using "base damage" and "cor 5" as data points, I solved for b and m, and came up with the following:

y = .14074x + 288

I then applied this formula to all the other data points. In all cases but "cow 8," the linear model fits the data perfectly:

X_____Y (modeled)_____Y (from data)
-350_____238.741_______246
-257_____251.82982_____251
-163_____265.05938_____264
-123_____270.68898_____270
-82_____276.45932______276
-64_____278.99264______279
-41_____282.22966______282
-21_____285.04446______285
0__________288_________288
20_____290.8148________291
40_____293.6296________294
65_____297.1481________297
90_____300.6666________301
135_____306.9999_______307

It appears that for the aether ray, a change of 1 AP changes damage by .14, regardless of whether the change is positive or negative. However, the ray seems to have a cap somewhere between -257 and -350 AP, beyond which reducing AP either has no affect on damage, or else has an altered effect. My guess is that it has no effect, but we can't be sure unless we get more data points from Imp. CoW or Imp. Demo Shout.

Also, it should be worth mentioning that the difference between the min and max damage was always 100, regardless of AP.

If I have time, I'll try to get some people in my guild to help me gather some more data on Aether Rays and other lovely creatures.

Edit: I did a bit more analysis.

Assume for a minute that we're working with a hard cap and that a damage reduction of 42 (288 - 246) is the max possible for this mob. Thus, according to the model, we have:

246 = .14074x + 288

.14074x = -42

x = -298

The greatest AP reduction possible on this mob is 298. Or, we might surmize that its AP is 298.

Another noteworthy point is that the highest damage reduction achieved (246 / 288) was .854, or a 14.6% reduction in damage, which exactly matches results from other mobs posted earlier in this thread.

PSGarak · 11/25/07, 12:19 PM

So Aether Rays have 298 AP, 7AP/DPS. This at least confirms that mobs in the wild tend to have different AP

PS ratios than PCs (14:1), much like demon pets seem to. What remains to be seen, is how consistent this is across different mob types than Aether Rays. I would guess that it varies by type, but remains the same for similar-type mobs, with normal humanoids hovering around 14:1. Since there's nothing special about Aether Rays to me that suggests they would be more lethal I would guess that 7:1 is normal for beasts, but it very well could vary by model as well. It's also possible, although I think less likely, that mobs in general have 7:1. Thanks for the data, Wug.

Wug · 11/26/07, 7:32 AM

298 AP or 300 AP, we really can't be sure. Because the data given by beast lore only gives whole numbers, it's a little tricky to construct a perfectly accurate model. (Note that mine starts to get off a bit as X gets highly negative.) My guess is that it really is 7 AP / damage, and not 7.1 like my model suggests.

The real question I have, though, is whether raid bosses ever have significantly higher AP than 300. If not, then the only reason for any PvEer ever to spec into Imp. Demo Shout or Imp. CoW is to allow warlocks to appy CoR. And on that note, has anyone done some math regarding when CoR is even worth using from a raid DPS standpoint? I.e. when it gives more added benefit over CoA or CoD?

Edit: Okay, I did the math myself using this post.

Assume six melee doing 600 DPS each, before any armor debuffs are applied.

Sunder Armor will increase each meleer's DPS by about 18% (or by 108) and by 648 to whole group combined.
Applying Fairie Fire gives another 4.2% (25.2). 151.2 added raid DPS.
CoR adds another 6% (36). 216 added raid DPS.

I'm not sure how much average DPS CoD or CoA does, but I'd bet it's way under 216.

Spline · 01/04/08, 2:08 PM

@PSGarak: Aether Rays have 2.0 attack speed. 7 AP causes damage per hit to go up by 1. Therefore, 14 AP causes damage per second to go up by 1. Just like normal. Also, I think we're right about elites and bosses having a straight multiplier on top of that.

I plugged all the data from this thread into a spreadsheet. This consisted of 4 points of Uvuros data, 14 points of Aether Ray data, four points of Lurker data, three other points of Lurker data, and three points of Lv73Scorpid data. Then I checked the Aether Ray numbers against this formula:

Min hit = AP modifier / 7 + 238

Like Wug's, my results were very close to the data recorded for Aether Rays. I decided to investigate the elite-boss-multiplier theory. I went down to the Uvuros data, divided the recorded min hit by my calculated min hit for Aether Rays, and deduced a multiplier around 9.5. Tried again for Lurker, and got a multiplier around 50. Tried for the Lv73 scorpid, got around 1.5. Margins of error were 5% except on Lurker, where the extra figures brought it down to 3%.

Funny thing I noticed about the Lurker data is that Shadow Embrace is affecting the readings. In Leita's data, the damage range goes down by 4% between having no AP debuffs and having some. In Dots' data, the range goes down by 1%. This suggests 4 point and 1 point talents in each raid, respectively. This is the weirdness that tricked Mahdi into thinking it isn't linear.

I'm confident that mobs have more than 300 attack power because of these pairs of data points:

Lurker
AP	Min	Max
-300	9519	14218
-510	9397	14096

LV73 Scorpid
AP	Min	Max
300	289	433
-350	285	429

What I'm not sure of is exactly how much AP. I've discovered 320, because Lurker, our best source of significant figures, gives us:

Lurker				
AP	Min	deltaMin	
-210	10068	
-300	9519	549
-???	9397	122

Going from -210AP to -300AP, 549damage / 90AP gives 6.1 damage per AP. Extrapolating, 122 damage at 6.1 damage per AP gives 20 AP. Ergo, ??? equals 320 ap. The numbers are the same for maximum hit because the size of the damage range stays constant.

Spline · 01/04/08, 2:47 PM

For convenience, here's our data set so far:

Lv70 Uvuros
AP	Min	Max	Range
0	2272	3214	942
-210	2002	2944	942
-248	1953	2895	942
-347	1881	2823	942

Lv71 Aether Ray			
AP	Min	Max	Range
135	257	356	99
90	251	350	99
65	247	346	99
45	244	344	100
20	241	340	99
0	238	337	99
-21	235	334	99
-41	232	331	99
-64	229	328	99
-82	226	325	99
-123	220	320	100
-163	214	314	100
-257	201	300	99
-350	196	296	100

Lv73 Scorpid			
AP	Min	Max	Range
0	345	489	144
-300	289	433	144
-350	285	429	144

Lurker (Leita)
			
AP	Min	Max	Range
0	11948	16895	4947
-210	10068	14768	4700
-300	9519	14218	4699
-510	9397	14096	4699

Lurker (Dots)			
			
AP	Min	Max	Range
0	11948	16895	4947
-300	9920	14817	4897
-420	9792	14696	4904

Xerophyte · 01/18/08, 1:48 AM

I was pointing to this thread from elsewhere and noticed the discrepancy on the Lurker tests. Quoting in part from the summary above.

Lurker (Leita)
AP	Min	Max	Range
-300	9519	14218	4699

Lurker (Dots)						
AP	Min	Max	Range
-300	9920	14817	4897

Although this seems contradictory, a plausible explanation is Shadow Embrace. If we assume that Leita had a 'lock with 5/5 SE and Dots had one with 1/5 SE we'll find the results match perfectly.

9519/.95 = 10020
9920/.99 = 10020.2020...

14218/.95 ≈ 14966.31579
14817/.99 = 14966.6666...

Squashed · 04/15/08, 6:13 PM

As a possible explanation on the AP Reduction cap, here are some results from dinking around on my warlock with the mobs out by the forge camps in western Nagrand.

Felguard Legionnaire (67 Elite)
Base Stats:
154 Strength
112 Agility
291 Stamina
32 Intellect
93 Spirit
Combat Stats:
288 Attack Power (note: 154 * 2 - 10 = 288)
420.5 DPS

Stats with Curse of Weakness (-350 AP)
Base Stats:
SAME
Combat Stats:
0 Attack Power (AP can't go negative, effective reduction of 288 AP)
355.3 DPS (DPS to AP ratio seems to be ~0.2264)

Stats with Curse of Recklessness (+135 AP)
Base Stats:
SAME
Combat Stats:
423 Attack Power (AP increases by the expected 135 AP)
451.1 DPS (Using the same DPS to AP ratio, the expected value for DPS matches the observed value)

Ga'narg Tinkerer (67 Non-elite)
Base Stats:
146 Strength
102 Agility
266 Stamina
125 Intellect
115 Spirit
Combat Stats:
272 Attack Power (Again, 146 * 2 - 10 = 272)
87.8 DPS

Stats with Curse of Weakness (-350 AP)
Base Stats:
SAME
Combat Stats:
0 Attack Power (Again, AP has a floor of 0)
73.9 DPS (DPS to AP ratio seems to be ~0.0511 in this case)

Stats with Curse of Reckless (+135 AP)
Base Stats:
SAME
Combat Stats:
407 Attack Power (Again, we observe an increase of the expected 135 AP)
94.7 DPS (The ratio of 0.0511 fits here too)

Without going and retrieving data over the hundreds of demons available, the following seems true:

The formula for a Demon's Attack Power is STRENGTH * 2 - 10.
The formula for a Demon's DPS is BASE_DPS + DPS_to_AP * AP.
BASE_DPS and DPS_to_AP are not the same for all Demons.

Johnneke · 04/16/08, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by Ikajo

Recently, I was doing some own tests on this matter (using Beast Lore to observe effects of Demo Roar, Screech and later Improved Demo Roar) - basically to predict the effect of an added CoW on Maulgar. Surprisingly, my tests seemed to indicate a possible hardcap for AP reduction on mobs. (Test was done on Uvuros - level 70 elite quest mob in Shadowmoon Valley.)

* Base Damage: ----------------------------- 2272-3214 --------- Average: 2743
* Screech (-210ap): ------------------------- 2002-2944 --------- Average: 2473 [-9.84%]
* Demoralizing Roar (-248ap): ------------- 1953-2895 --------- Average: 2424 [-11.63%]
* Improved Demoralizing Roar (-347ap): - 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]
* Screech + Demoralizing Roar: ----------- 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]
* Screech + Improved Demoralizing Roar: 1881-2823 --------- Average: 2352 [-14.25%]

This comes in nice in line with what is known from various resources on the net concerning ap reduction. Ive made a write up for my guild which I also posted here but I'll put it in here again (Sources are included so look it up for yourself aswell if you want to find out more):

What we know!

Maximum Attack Power Reduction on Raid Bosses: 340AP

Roar, Demoralizing Shout & Curse of Weakness DONT Stack
Screech (Owl/Bat Hunter Pet) is the ONLY AP Reducement Ability that does stack with the above

Attack Power Reduction from Roar: 240AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 0/5: 300AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 2/5: 348AP
Attack Power Reduction from Demoralizing Shout 5/5: 420AP
Attack Power Reduction from Curse of Weakness 0/2: 350AP
Attack Power Reduction from Screech (Rank 5): 210AP

Attack Power Increase from Curse of Recklessness: 135AP

What can we make from this!

A Raid Boss Without Curse of Recklessness has: 340AP
- Debuffed with 0/5 Demoralizing Shout: 40AP
- Debuffed with 2/5 Demoralizing Shout: 0AP
- Debuffed with 5/5 Demoralizing Shout: 0AP
- Debuffed with Roar: 100AP
- Debuffed with 0/2 Curse of Weakness: 0AP

A Raid Boss with the Debuff Curse of Recklessness has: 475AP
- Debuffed with 0/5 Demoralizing Shout: 165AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with 2/5 Demoralizing Shout: 117AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with 5/5 Demoralizing Shout: 55AP (With Screech: 0AP)
- Debuffed with Roar: 235AP (With Screech: 20AP)
- Debuffed with 0/2 Curse of Weakness: 125AP (With Screech: 0AP)

Synopsis

- When we have a hunter with a Owl or Bat pet with Screech (Rank 5) Curse of Recklessness can be used safely on ALL bosses while still getting the MAXIMUM Attack Power Reduction Possible (Exempt: Roar)

- When we do NOT have a hunter with a Owl or Bat pet with Screech (Rank 5) Curse of Recklessness can be used safely on most bosses depending on if we have a warrior with 5/5 imp ds or not. Bosses we do NOT want to use CoR on currently are: Archimonde, Azgalor, Mother Shahraz and Illidan, Reliquary of Sould (Phase 1).
Bosses we should NOT use CoR on when we do not have 5/5 Demo Shout are: Teron Gorefiend

Resources:
Wowhead: Use it to find Mankrik's wife.
A brief primer on Attack Power - TankSpot
http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t7058-de...g_shout_et_al/
Demoralizing Shout - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

All above information can be found through these and other various resources.

sarf · 04/18/08, 4:27 AM

Hmm... I'm not too comfortable with the assumption of raid bosses have 340 AP, as someone else seems to be in that tankspot thread.

From my calculations, it seems that Uvuros has 304 AP - this would seem to indicate that the AP range varies a lot between different creatures (if the 411 AP Kara imps are not including the Warlocks +spellpower AND assuming that they can all be removed).

I do not see how we from the current data - since the WoW forums thread seems to be gone - can say that 340 AP is where it is at.

I arrived at 304 AP by checking the amount of damage coming from AP - 391, then calculating the expected damage when decreasing AP by a certain number - at 304 AP you end up with -210 AP yielding 2472.901 and -248 AP you get 2424.026, which agrees with the data provided that the values are rounded to closest integer.

Chirality · 04/18/08, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by sarf

Hmm... I'm not too comfortable with the assumption of raid bosses have 340 AP, as someone else seems to be in that tankspot thread.

From my calculations, it seems that Uvuros has 304 AP - this would seem to indicate that the AP range varies a lot between different creatures (if the 411 AP Kara imps are not including the Warlocks +spellpower AND assuming that they can all be removed).

I do not see how we from the current data - since the WoW forums thread seems to be gone - can say that 340 AP is where it is at.

I arrived at 304 AP by checking the amount of damage coming from AP - 391, then calculating the expected damage when decreasing AP by a certain number - at 304 AP you end up with -210 AP yielding 2472.901 and -248 AP you get 2424.026, which agrees with the data provided that the values are rounded to closest integer.

I never got 340 either, based on the Lurker Below.

---
If you assume something like:

Damage = base_damage + attack_power*multiplier*weapon_speed / 14.0

Using the information on the Lurker Below from Beat Lore (shown below with level of Shadow Embrace) from earlier in this thread:

Damage Range		ShadowEmbrace	-Attack Power  
11984-16895		0/5			0	
10068-14768		5/5			-210 (bat pet screech)
9519-14218		5/5			-300 (non-talented demo shout)
9397-14096		5/5			-510 (demo + screech) 
And by Beast Lore on the Lurker below with 1/5 Shadow Embrace
11948-16895		0/5			0
9920-14817		1/5			-300 (non-talented demo)
9792-14696		1/5			-420 (talented demo)

Assuming a damage equation of the form (Damage = ShadowEmbraceFactor*(Base + AP*multiplier*2.0/14)) for a boss that attacks with a delay of 2.0, the result is that:

Damage_from_AP = 45.0 *AP /7.0

For AP reduction ranging from 0-300. The 420+ AP reductions do not futher decrease the bosses's damage. The indication is that the boss has 320 +/-3% attack power.

Thus: Only one point in improved Demo Shout is useful without CoRex.