[top] (Hit% * X * Y) + (Crit% * X * Y * 2 * PIbonus)

javajo · 03/28/07, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cryect

Varies based on your AP. But ranges from 1 Agi = 2.1 AP to 2.4 AP

So, by that equation...

The AP value of the crit given from 1 AGI is equal to 1.4 AP (top end).
1 AGI = .04% Crit
or .04 * 22.1 = 0.884 Crit Rating = 1.4 AP.
(1 / .884) * 1.4 = 1.5837... AP per 1 Crit Rating?

Would this value be the same for Hit Rating? (Prior to the 8.6% cap of course)

I understand that these values would be a rough estimate, and assume "average" AP levels. Would be nice to use a guideline when comparing gear that's made for my class

Originally Posted by ruro

It sounds difficult to believe, but I think it's probably true. When you consider how large a percentage of your damage is coming from auto attack you will appreciate agility more I think. However without decent amounts of AP (which is best augmented by strength) agility is worth much less I think, and we arrive at a chicken > egg scenario. Taking that into consideration, I think that once you reach a certain level of AP, the returns on agility will be larger than that of strength. I'm unsure how much AP that is, and i'm not at home to spreadsheet it out, but perhaps when I get home I'll give it a whirl.

I'd be very interested in seeing such a spreadsheet, especially if it shows the why of things like we have a high percentage of white damage, and why crit makes that better.

I'm completely new to the DPS business even though I've been "Feral" since well before 1.8 (Back when Feral was 18 points and still having Innervate). Hasn't been a problem so far since we seem to be short on tanks most of the time, a roll I am far more comfortable and competent in.

As such, a lot of these basic assumptions elude me. I wouldn't know where to even start to spreadsheet it out.

Umph · 03/29/07, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by javajo

I'd be very interested in seeing such a spreadsheet, especially if it shows the why of things like we have a high percentage of white damage, and why crit makes that better.

Off the top of my head, we have a high amount of white damage compared to Rogues because:
- our base miss-rate is much lower because we don't dual weild or use a two handed weapon,
- We gain attack power at a greater rate (higher strength contribution, Heart of the Wild)
- Our specials are essentially the same as Rogue specials but are generally less effective, as are our finishing moves.

Could be wrong though, I'll see when I bust out Excel.

sp00n · 03/29/07, 3:46 AM

How high is your percentage of white damage then?

For combat rogues, it ranges at about 50-60%.

Boevis · 03/29/07, 4:21 AM

On nightbane tonight:
Melee: 30%
Shred: 29%
Rip: 18%
Mangle (cat): 7%
Maul: 6%
Swipe: 6%
Mangle (bear): 4%

Obviously I went bear for the skeletons, but overall pretty accurate of most of my fights as far as the white damage goes. Mind you, I'm not specced for Mangle (cat) nor do I power-shift on that fight (too laggy for me) So you're likely to see some druids running 25% white damage.

Cryect · 03/29/07, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by ruro

Off the top of my head, we have a high amount of white damage compared to Rogues because:
- our base miss-rate is much lower because we don't dual weild or use a two handed weapon,
- We gain attack power at a greater rate (higher strength contribution, Heart of the Wild)
- Our specials are essentially the same as Rogue specials but are generally less effective, as are our finishing moves.

Could be wrong though, I'll see when I bust out Excel.

We are like rogues without slice and dice. Slice and Dice pushes rogue white damage from about 30% of their damage up closer to 50% (bigger than just the boost from haste due to losing finishing move damage) whereas druids its around 30%.

Rip is just as good as Rupture. Only issue with Ferocious Bite is it messes up our energy cycles and averages out to be less damage on mobs that are bleedable otherwise it could kinda be said to be better than Evisc (but both of them are really only PvP abilities or for mobs which can't bleed).

kharen · 03/29/07, 7:26 AM

Off the top of my head, we have a high amount of white damage compared to Rogues because:
- our base miss-rate is much lower because we don't dual weild or use a two handed weapon

This is more likely a reason why ferals have low percentages of white damage compared to a combat rogue - if both reduce their miss rate to 0 (trivial for the druid, possible but somewhat difficult for the rogue), a druid gains roughly a 5.25% boost to their white damage (5/95 = 0.0526), while a rogue increases their white damage by over 30% (24/76 = 0.316). Obviously most rogues don't have quite that much +hit, but it's certainly not hard to approach 20%, even at current (blues + epics that aren't much of an upgrade from blues) gear-levels.

Couple that with Dual Wield spec (a 16.7% boost to white damage), and SnD (30% boost while active). Combine all those together, and you can clearly see how rogue white damage scales significantly faster than druid white damage.

This is also relevant to your second point - while druids get much better AP scaling, rogues get more damage out of each point of AP if they're correctly-specced for it: ignoring glances, which will affect both classes equally, 14 AP gives a druid 1 white dps, while for a combat rogue it gives 1.75*1.3*(1-missrate) white dps, where missrate will generally be around 5-10% for a reasonably-geared rogue (IIRC I'm at around +18% to hit vs a level 73 target with a mix of blues and a few kara epics), leading to a total of more than double the benefit that the druid gains. When you add up all our talents/gear/etc, the amount of white dps we gain from AP is actually kinda scary.

- Our specials are essentially the same as Rogue specials but are generally less effective, as are our finishing moves.

I'm not sure about your CP generators, but Rip, at least, is equivalent to or better than the rogue equivalent - max-rank Rip has a higher base damage than max-rank rupture (1096 vs 1000), and they both gain the same 24% AP contribution, which with feral itemisation (it's worth noting that +feral AP weapons provide druids with a significant benefit to your finishers, while a rogue's weapons do nothing for ours, beyond the fairly minimal amount of stats they'll have) and your superior AP scaling*, means that Rip does more damage than Rupture at equivalent gear-levels (albeit at a higher energy cost - 30 vs 25). Plus of course you can always rely on having Mangle up, whereas a rogue has to hope there's a druid around for that

(or be specced rather deeply into sub to get our own +30% rupture damage talent).

* Just as a comparison, since the Armory caught one of my druid guildies in cat form/gear, with roughly equivalent gear, he has just over 2.3k AP, while i have just under 1.6k: if he doesn't log on and switch gear/form - him vs me.

(Err, I seem to have wittered on a bit and probably wandered way off-topic here. I blame the fact that I haven't slept for about 24 hours. But anyway, i think the point i was trying to make is that druids scale much more with yellow dps rather than white, as opposed to rogues, who're tilted much further in the opposite direction).

sp00n · 03/29/07, 7:31 AM

Hm, Rip seems to be more effective to me than Rupture.
Rupture: 1000 damage over 16 secs.
Rip: 1092 damage over 12 sec.

Both increase with attack power, but in general druids tend to have more attack power than rogues. Of course on the other hand, rogues rarely use Rupture.
Oh, and Rupture costs 5 less energy than Rip.

Eviscerate seems to be better than Fericous Bite (985(?) vs. 952 - corret at all? Thottbot is a bit unclear about the values), but it's again affected by attack power. And both cost 35 energy.

Umph · 03/29/07, 8:02 AM

I'm dumb and didn't think of Slice and Dice, typically my white damage is 40-50% of my total damage which is obviously significantly less than a lot of Rogues it seems. I'd just assumed it was a higher percentage. So, my bad there - most of my observations were drawn against my own Rogue who doesn't raid!

Still, what Rogues are actively using Rupture? Is it really a viable replacement to Slice and Dice?

Edit: Now that I mention Rupture, I do recall Khazal using it whilst I was tanking one of the Magtheridon Channelers.

kharen · 03/29/07, 8:19 AM

Still, what Rogues are actively using Rupture? Is it really a viable replacement to Slice and Dice?

Almost every viable raid spec generates more CPs than are needed to keep SnD running at 100% (5 CPs per 30s, roughly), so you're always cycling another finisher in alongside it. With a 41pt combat SS build, combat potency allows you to comfortably maintain a 5s/5e or 5s/5r cycle most of the time as long as you have a reasonably fast offhand (obviously, with combat potency being a % proc, you'll occasionally get a really unlucky streak where it just isn't proccing, but it averages out ok). Choice of Evis vs Rupture varies depending on the situation (crit rate, mob armour, etc), but generally speaking, if you have a druid present for Mangle, Rupture will be strictly superior.

Umph · 03/29/07, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by kharen

This is more likely a reason why ferals have low percentages of white damage compared to a combat rogue - if both reduce their miss rate to 0 (trivial for the druid, possible but somewhat difficult for the rogue), a druid gains roughly a 5.25% boost to their white damage (5/95 = 0.0526), while a rogue increases their white damage by over 30% (24/76 = 0.316).

Going back a little, I'm actually not sure what you're saying here. If Rogues were to gain 3-4 times the hit rating of a Druid they would do more damage? Of course they would! I think both gaining a similar level of +hit would be a better comparison, or would the results be basically the same?

kharen · 03/29/07, 8:55 AM

Going back a little, I'm actually not sure what you're saying here. If Rogues were to gain 3-4 times the hit rating of a Druid they would do more damage? Of course they would! I think both gaining a similar level of +hit would be a better comparison, or would the results be basically the same?

I think my point was that since we start from a lower baseline, each point of +hit will grant us a larger (%-wise) damage increase than it will a druid, even ignoring the fact that we can stack much more of it and still gain a benefit (like I said though, I'm kinda tired right now, so apologies if I'm a little incoherent at times). The real meat of what I was trying to say was in the third paragraph - dual-wielding, especially in combination with DW spec and large amounts of +hit, acts as a tremendous multiplier on the benefit you get from AP from any source, be that gear upgrades, buffs, or consumables.

It's also potentially a benefit in item-budget terms - the more beneficial stats you can spread an item-budget between, the better results you'll get, assuming all the stats are equally good. Capping a stat out means that any subsequent upgrades have to be funnelled down into fewer stats, and you start paying the price for the exponent on each stat in the ilvl calculations.

edit: also, my point was partly that because we get such good returns on +hit, we gear for more hit and proportionally less AP, leading to our white damage scaling more (in comparison to a druid) and our yellow damage scaling less. Since the mechanics are such that we can scale our white damage more, we do so, and since item budgets are finite, that means tradeoffs in other areas such as AP/crit.

javajo · 03/29/07, 11:57 AM

If it weren't for the DW hit penalty (as well as the Off-Hand damage penalty) DW would be a superior choice for white damage, always.

Thanks to talents like DW Spec and being able to increase your hit rating such that you're reducing portions of the DW hit penalty, it becomes the superior choice for white damage again.

(Trying to summarize Kharen's post in a different context.)

If a Druid stacked up that much hit rating, he'd be wasting item budget simply because it gives no benefit (to white damage) after gaining 5.6% to hit (86.8 hit rating).

On the topic of the OP (kinda), how weighty IS the benifit to our hit rating beyond 5.6% for specials. To me, it seems a missed Mangle seriously hurts our DPS rotations, but is it worth it dropping to Rogue level AP values to max out the hit rating to minimize missed Mangles? (Alliteration is fun.)

WolfHart · 03/29/07, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by javajo

If it weren't for the DW hit penalty (as well as the Off-Hand damage penalty) DW would be a superior choice for white damage, always.

Thanks to talents like DW Spec and being able to increase your hit rating such that you're reducing portions of the DW hit penalty, it becomes the superior choice for white damage again.

(Trying to summarize Kharen's post in a different context.)

If a Druid stacked up that much hit rating, he'd be wasting item budget simply because it gives no benefit (to white damage) after gaining 5.6% to hit (86.8 hit rating).

On the topic of the OP (kinda), how weighty IS the benifit to our hit rating beyond 5.6% for specials. To me, it seems a missed Mangle seriously hurts our DPS rotations, but is it worth it dropping to Rogue level AP values to max out the hit rating to minimize missed Mangles? (Alliteration is fun.)

I can't boast being as hardcore a numbercruncher or raider as most on these forums, but currently even with some kz drops and a lot of crafted/rep gear and enchants I have maintained over 90 hit rating and >2400ap... doing a few socket swaps dropping my crit from it's current 33.6% down and boosting my hit rate I could hit 126 hit rate and still maintain ~30% crit and 2300+ ap... for those who have downed places like gruul's id imagine a feline druid would have illhoof's staff which would make hit even easier, not to mention surefooted enchant... (tho the expensive mats and the loss of minor run speed worth it imo)

I can only imagine and try and calculate how easy it woudld be to break 2500ap 35% crit and maintain 8.6% plus hit with gear past kz...

So I guess back on point we don't have to sacrafice our ap so much to keep high hit and crit, though looking at the equations earlier in this thread I'm considering the push to 40% crit (if someone comes out with a spread sheet sometime with the point of diminishing return of agi over str I'd love to see it)

javajo · 03/29/07, 3:10 PM

Right now, my concern is maintaining the 133.3 hit rating to max out while still wearing set gear. The itemization doesn't seem to be there to get that much hit rating from ELEVEN slots (even though those slots have a lower slot mulitlplier than the 5 set slots.)

It would be nice to know how much would be optimum while still going on set gear (going against the assumption that maxing out hit rating would be optimum).

Solstice · 03/29/07, 5:36 PM

I'm pretty new to the whole theorycrafting business but I'm interested to know how much emphasis to place +hit vs +crit, so I've drawn up some rough figures. Apologies if there are any glaring errors in these calculations.

The general concensus on these forums seems to be that white damage uses a single roll "3 outcomes" system, whereas yellow damage uses a 2 roll system.

White Damage

Assume the following (arbitrary?) base stats:
X = Number of white hits = 200
Y = Average damage per white hit = 200
Hit = 65%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 35%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52400

[top] (Hit% * X * Y) + (Crit% * X * Y * 2 * PIbonus)

(0.65 * 200 * 200) + (0.3 * 200 * 200 * 2 * 1.1)

Adding 1% to hit:
New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers) = 65% + 1% = 66%
New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers) = 30%
New miss chance = (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers) = 5% - 1% = 4%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52800
= (0.66 * 200 * 200) + (0.3 * 200 * 200 * 2.2)

Adding 1% crit:
New hit chance = 65% - 1% = 64%
New crit chance = 30% + 1% = 31%
New miss chance = 5%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52880
= (0.64 * 200 * 200) + (0.31 * 200 * 200 * 2.2)

From these results it looks as if, point for point, +crit adds more damage than +hit on white damage.

Yellow Damage

N = Number of Mangles = 50 = (((200sec / 2sec)* 20 energy)/40 energy)
M = Average damage per mangle = 750
Hit = 65%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 30%

1st roll:
Hit = 95%
Miss = 5%

2nd Roll If hit:
Crit = 30%
Noncrit = 70%

Average damage per 50 mangles = 48450

[top] (Hit% * NonCrit% * N * M) + (Hit% * Crit% * N * M * 2.2)

(0.95 * 0.7 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.3 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

Adding 1% to hit :
Hit = 96%
Miss = 4%
Crit = 30%
Average damage per 50 mangles = 48960
= (0.96 * 0.7 * 50 * 750) + ( 0.96 * 0.3 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

Adding 1% crit:
Hit = 95%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 31%
Average damage per 50 mangles = 48877.5

[top] (0.95 * 0.69 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.31 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

From these results it looks as if, point for point, +hit adds more damage than +crit on yellow damage.

So over a 200 second cycle using only mangle and autoattack:
Total damage with no modifiers

100850
Total damage with +1% hit = 101760
Total damage with +1% crit = 101757.5

Overall it looks like +hit and +crit add the virtually the same dps point for point.
There are some obvious limitations with this model though.
- It uses only mangle to model yellow damage. Using a normal dps cycle of mangle -> shred*4 -> rip, the proportion of dps made up by yellow damage would be much greater, which would heavily favour +hit.
- It doesnt include dps gain from Primal Fury procs which would favour +crit.
- Rip cannot crit but can miss, whereby the energy used is lost.
- As far as I can tell tell, the comparison between crit and hit is completely independent of AP.

I'd be really interested to see a spreadsheet with these factors included, but I dont really have the time (or patience) to draw one up at the moment. Perhaps if noone else gets 'round to it anytime soon.

[top] (Hit% * X * Y) + (Crit% * X * Y * 2 * PIbonus)

[top] (Hit% * NonCrit% * N * M) + (Hit% * Crit% * N * M * 2.2)

[top] (0.95 * 0.69 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.31 * 50 * 750 * 2.2) From these results it looks as if, point for point, +hit adds more damage than +crit on yellow damage. So over a 200 second cycle using only mangle and autoattack: Total damage with no modifiers

[top] (0.95 * 0.69 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.31 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

From these results it looks as if, point for point, +hit adds more damage than +crit on yellow damage.

So over a 200 second cycle using only mangle and autoattack:
Total damage with no modifiers