I think my point was that since we start from a lower baseline, each point of +hit will grant us a larger (%-wise) damage increase than it will a druid, even ignoring the fact that we can stack much more of it and still gain a benefit (like I said though, I'm kinda tired right now, so apologies if I'm a little incoherent at times). The real meat of what I was trying to say was in the third paragraph - dual-wielding, especially in combination with DW spec and large amounts of +hit, acts as a tremendous multiplier on the benefit you get from AP from any source, be that gear upgrades, buffs, or consumables.

It's also potentially a benefit in item-budget terms - the more beneficial stats you can spread an item-budget between, the better results you'll get, assuming all the stats are equally good. Capping a stat out means that any subsequent upgrades have to be funnelled down into fewer stats, and you start paying the price for the exponent on each stat in the ilvl calculations.

edit: also, my point was partly that because we get such good returns on +hit, we gear for more hit and proportionally less AP, leading to our white damage scaling more (in comparison to a druid) and our yellow damage scaling less. Since the mechanics are such that we can scale our white damage more, we do so, and since item budgets are finite, that means tradeoffs in other areas such as AP/crit.

If it weren't for the DW hit penalty (as well as the Off-Hand damage penalty) DW would be a superior choice for white damage, always.

Thanks to talents like DW Spec and being able to increase your hit rating such that you're reducing portions of the DW hit penalty, it becomes the superior choice for white damage again.

(Trying to summarize Kharen's post in a different context.)

If a Druid stacked up that much hit rating, he'd be wasting item budget simply because it gives no benefit (to white damage) after gaining 5.6% to hit (86.8 hit rating).

On the topic of the OP (kinda), how weighty IS the benifit to our hit rating beyond 5.6% for specials. To me, it seems a missed Mangle seriously hurts our DPS rotations, but is it worth it dropping to Rogue level AP values to max out the hit rating to minimize missed Mangles? (Alliteration is fun.)

I can't boast being as hardcore a numbercruncher or raider as most on these forums, but currently even with some kz drops and a lot of crafted/rep gear and enchants I have maintained over 90 hit rating and >2400ap... doing a few socket swaps dropping my crit from it's current 33.6% down and boosting my hit rate I could hit 126 hit rate and still maintain ~30% crit and 2300+ ap... for those who have downed places like gruul's id imagine a feline druid would have illhoof's staff which would make hit even easier, not to mention surefooted enchant... (tho the expensive mats and the loss of minor run speed worth it imo)

I can only imagine and try and calculate how easy it woudld be to break 2500ap 35% crit and maintain 8.6% plus hit with gear past kz...

So I guess back on point we don't have to sacrafice our ap so much to keep high hit and crit, though looking at the equations earlier in this thread I'm considering the push to 40% crit (if someone comes out with a spread sheet sometime with the point of diminishing return of agi over str I'd love to see it)

Right now, my concern is maintaining the 133.3 hit rating to max out while still wearing set gear. The itemization doesn't seem to be there to get that much hit rating from ELEVEN slots (even though those slots have a lower slot mulitlplier than the 5 set slots.)

It would be nice to know how much would be optimum while still going on set gear (going against the assumption that maxing out hit rating would be optimum).

I'm pretty new to the whole theorycrafting business but I'm interested to know how much emphasis to place +hit vs +crit, so I've drawn up some rough figures. Apologies if there are any glaring errors in these calculations.

The general concensus on these forums seems to be that white damage uses a single roll "3 outcomes" system, whereas yellow damage uses a 2 roll system.

White Damage

Assume the following (arbitrary?) base stats:
X = Number of white hits = 200
Y = Average damage per white hit = 200
Hit = 65%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 35%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52400

[top] (Hit% * X * Y) + (Crit% * X * Y * 2 * PIbonus)

(0.65 * 200 * 200) + (0.3 * 200 * 200 * 2 * 1.1)

Adding 1% to hit:
New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers) = 65% + 1% = 66%
New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers) = 30%
New miss chance = (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers) = 5% - 1% = 4%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52800
= (0.66 * 200 * 200) + (0.3 * 200 * 200 * 2.2)

Adding 1% crit:
New hit chance = 65% - 1% = 64%
New crit chance = 30% + 1% = 31%
New miss chance = 5%
Average damage per 200 white hits = 52880
= (0.64 * 200 * 200) + (0.31 * 200 * 200 * 2.2)

From these results it looks as if, point for point, +crit adds more damage than +hit on white damage.

Yellow Damage

N = Number of Mangles = 50 = (((200sec / 2sec)* 20 energy)/40 energy)
M = Average damage per mangle = 750
Hit = 65%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 30%

1st roll:
Hit = 95%
Miss = 5%

2nd Roll If hit:
Crit = 30%
Noncrit = 70%

Average damage per 50 mangles = 48450

[top] (Hit% * NonCrit% * N * M) + (Hit% * Crit% * N * M * 2.2)

(0.95 * 0.7 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.3 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

Adding 1% to hit :
Hit = 96%
Miss = 4%
Crit = 30%
Average damage per 50 mangles = 48960
= (0.96 * 0.7 * 50 * 750) + ( 0.96 * 0.3 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

Adding 1% crit:
Hit = 95%
Miss = 5%
Crit = 31%
Average damage per 50 mangles = 48877.5

[top] (0.95 * 0.69 * 50 * 750) + (0.95 * 0.31 * 50 * 750 * 2.2)

From these results it looks as if, point for point, +hit adds more damage than +crit on yellow damage.

So over a 200 second cycle using only mangle and autoattack:
Total damage with no modifiers

100850
Total damage with +1% hit = 101760
Total damage with +1% crit = 101757.5

Overall it looks like +hit and +crit add the virtually the same dps point for point.
There are some obvious limitations with this model though.
- It uses only mangle to model yellow damage. Using a normal dps cycle of mangle -> shred*4 -> rip, the proportion of dps made up by yellow damage would be much greater, which would heavily favour +hit.
- It doesnt include dps gain from Primal Fury procs which would favour +crit.
- Rip cannot crit but can miss, whereby the energy used is lost.
- As far as I can tell tell, the comparison between crit and hit is completely independent of AP.

I'd be really interested to see a spreadsheet with these factors included, but I dont really have the time (or patience) to draw one up at the moment. Perhaps if noone else gets 'round to it anytime soon.

133? says 126 above... but true, with t4 it it tough... but edgewalker boots off moroes are good hit and 4 hit 4 agi gems are great for boosting hit...

yeah i use the lost treads too when not against bosses...

as for the rings I use the adals and a blue hit agi ap ring unique instance drop ravenclaw band or sumin... because until I get the squid staff don't have enough hit to swap to ursol's band...

as for neck I use the exalted consortium 5 more agi but no stam...

but yeah it gets rough, still say that +hit topaz is a decent way to try and squeak ur hit up and keeping that alternate hit set for just bosses...

I'm still having difficulty understanding why anyone would place so much emphasis on reaching the hit cap. Even if it is marginally more beneficial than the same ipoints in crit, agi or str (although this is debatable) most items with +hit seem to have +AP rather than strength, which is a pretty clear indication to me that it was designed with rogues in mind rather than druids.

Anycase, I'm not saying you people are wrong but would be good if someone could explain to me (or link an appropriate thread) why it's so neccessary to reach the hit cap at whatever cost.

Other thing is, how does + feral combat skill rating rate as an alternative to + hit given that feral itemisation is the way it is? The fcsr from EW for example adds around .25% hit (as well as -0.25% to be dodged and 0.87% crit, also some -block and parry although this isnt relavant for pve dps I guess). Other notable items are Shapeshifter's Signet and Clefthoof Hide Legging's, both easily obtainable from faction rep\quest.

Do druids regain energy when one of their specials misses? Rogues do (but not for finishing moves).

If so, you have to account for that in your calculation.
If not, I apologize, it's been a hell of a long time since I've actually missed a backstab/sinister strike.
And when I did so, I didn't take a look at my energy.

Comparing %s doesn't seem to be the best way to go about comparing the two, as 1% hit requires less hit rating than 1% crit requires crit rating.

Certainly not "at whatever cost" But it's so easy to reach hit cap, and so terribly annoying when you miss (this is the reason for me anyway) that I haven't seen a good reason to not cap it. My cat gear is far from the best, however there's very little room for improvement beyond a weapon upgrade (Fleshling Staff ftl).

Just like I favor dodge for tanking, I favor crit for DPS (I'm at 2.3k AP, but 35% Crit unbuffed) and I fairly often TF-Shred on OOC procs just because my energy is about to tic to full and I'm already at 5 CPs with rip/mangle still up (I do this instead of FB because of the way I run my cycle as posted earlier)

Not precisely. SnD is always used, but most builds have cycles that allow you to swap between finishers while maintaining SnD. Mutilate builds can run 3-finisher cycles(e.g. SnD/Rupture/Evis or SnD/Rupture/Expose), Combat SS builds can run two-finisher cycles, and Combat Daggers can occasionally toss off a 1-2 point finisher in addition to SS.

If the mob has Mangle on it, Rupture is more damage than Eviscerate, so you'll tend to see it a lot. :P

Yes. Certainly not at whatever cost. What I am trying to determine is; what is acceptable cost? Especially when comparing set items to other comparable epics which include ample amounts of hit rating.

I'm just starting Karazhan with my guild, but in 5-man/quest blues and assorted craftables I am now at the point where I find myself *avoiding* pieces with +hit because I simply have too goddamn much of it. If I put on all my quote-unquote optimal DPS gear, I have about 20-25 more hit rating than I need to cap out. If I ever land the Stranglestaff, my hit rating would be even sillier.

I am desperate for some leather with something other than AP/+hit on it, but it sure seems to be scarce. I'd love to see non-set leather with STR/STA/+crit, but that's pretty much nonexistant at the moment (and the rogues would have a bloody conniption). For now, my philosophy for cat DPS is to cap out my hit rating (or get really close) and then devote the rest of my gear to AP and survivability; dead kitties do no damage.

Cats get very nice returns from +crit, but I usually find myself having to pop Cower when I get a string of frequent crits, which mutes the benefit of the extra damage and combo points. It's not necessarily borne out on paper, but in application I've been seeing the best results from capping out +hit and then binging on AP and stamina. Despite what I just said about +crit, I feel mine's a little low, but I prefer to pick up crit via agility rather than the direct modifier because agility is so amazing for just about all things feral.

I've had the same problem, but this is only really true when you are running around in your best levelling/dungeon blues. The entire Tier4 set has just +12 Hit rating and once you start making your way through Kz you'll pick up other excellet DPS gear (Zierhut's Lost Treads, Mithril Chain of Heroism, Girdle of Treachery to name the better ones) that lack +Hit. It becomes much easier to get just over the cap as opposed to +20 points over.

+Crit Rating on the other hand is another matter as there isn't a lot of that, but like you I prefer Agility anyway as it scales with Kings and there are a few good Rogue Agi + AP items around. Just a shame there's isn't more +Str & +Agi.