Firstly i am new to these forums and i really looked long and hard to see if there was another thread i could post under instead of starting a new one.

This is about raid dps as cat. It is widely accepted that the basics for sustained cat dps is obviously mangle+shred+rip. Beyond this and that some bosses (e.g. Doomwalker) cannot be ripped, it seems that there is not a lot of skill involved. I keep an eye on dot timer so that magle is up, and otherwise i just shred away and rip at 5 combo points. The real skill is universal to all melee dps which is aggro management and moving/keeping contact with target on bosses like Gruul.
In a lot of discussion about viability of cat dps, a lot say that cat can match rogues if you are "skilled", and seems mainly to refer to powershifting. Supposedly the "art" of squeezing extra energy.

I question this and would be interested to know if this has been quantified.
1)Using shred all the time very rarely leaves you with zero energy and so does the inevitable miss/parry/dodge. So shifting out loses whatever you have left.
2) Global cooldown straight after the last ability that took your energy to near zero.
3)Global cooldown if u take a pot while shifted out.
4) Global cooldown once you shift back to cat.

You gain 20 energy every 2 secs. Yet you have minimum 1 gcd or maybe 3 if u powershift.
So powershifitng costs huge amounts of mana yet gets a maximum of 25 energy gain. Often a lot less.
Also, you lose the opportunity cost of white dpsing that can proc a Omen of Clarity.

What are thoughts or critiques of the above anaylsis? (or lack thereof?)

Here is the theorycraft (maybe be flawed and would welcome feedback)

1)Energy wasted; given 42 energy cost for shred, you are often left with anything between 0-8 energy when you decide to shift out. It's acutally rare to get zero energy exactly and so lets assume an average of 3, given that most would not powershift on 8, and the mean of the other 4 is 3.
2)So timeline assumption (optimal powershifting, i.e. you shift purely for energy and you have superhuman robotic reactions allowing you to lose no time between punchign keys!;
time=0.0sec ; GCD triggered after last move.
time=0.0sec ; shift out (you can shift out during gcd?)
time=1.5sec ; shift back in
time=2.5sec ; your first white hit goes in. (is this correct?)
time=3.0sec ; your first yellow hit goes in.
3)Lost dps due to powershifting is 2.5 sec of white dmg
4)Energy gained is 40*(4secs-1.5sec)=25
less expected OoC = 2.5*42energy*OoC proc % (i dont know this)

WOuld be grateful for contributions and clarifications on the above.
But straight away, you CANNOT lose 2.5 secs fo white dmg given that that is more than mangle. PLus the ignored mana costs (druids often contribute by healign themselves and ressing so mana cost is not zero) and I conclude that you should NEVER powershift.

A few things to note:

1) Shifting out ignores GCD, so, if you're quick, and shift immediately following a special, you can shift down as the GCD wears off, effectively costing no time whatsoever.

2) When you shift out, your swing timer is reset, and you get a near-instant white hit from your melee weapon. This is particularly effective with the slower maces/staves we've all got these days.

3) EnergyWatch. Use it, love it. You can time your shifts to occur right before an energy tic would happen, which causes you to not 'lose' any energy, aside from the 1-8 remaining from your last special.

I powershift like mad. In fact, I use it so much, I've taken to popping mana pots every so often. There is nothing we do that generates the DPS that a mangled Shred or Rip are capable of, and I use powershifting to amplify these as much as I can.

1) Shifting out ignores GCD, so, if you're quick, and shift immediately following a special, you can shift down as the GCD wears off, effectively costing no time whatsoever.
ye i assumed that. Also assumes that you have perfect superhuman timing and not spamming the cat form button which will cost u 0.1-02 secs

2) When you shift out, your swing timer is reset, and you get a near-instant white hit from your melee weapon. This is particularly effective with the slower maces/staves we've all got these days.
this is the thing i am uncertain of. when u target a lvl1 critter, i.e. u press attack, it does not hit it as u press the button, there is a delay. Would love some clarification.

3) EnergyWatch. Use it, love it. You can time your shifts to occur right before an energy tic would happen, which causes you to not 'lose' any energy, aside from the 1-8 remaining from your last special.
"timing" is irrelevant. you do not need energy watch for this. it's only for timing your openign move. there is no optimal time to start the powershift process....it is always straight after the last energy tick that enabled u to do the special. That also assumesyou are going to shift and does not allow for reaction time, esp the waste of shifting if your special misses/dodges/blocked/parried.

Well it seems that given the global timing of energy ticks, you are right and you can totally not miss out on an energy tick. It depends on white hit timer. In reality, it is hard to do and prob requires skilled shift back in on GCD rather than most amatuers who prob spam the shift button and hence losing 0.2 secs which can lose them an energy tick.
Also you have to allow 0.1-0.3 sec of reaction on whether your last special "got through" which would make powershfting highly skilled requiring very good reaction and hence the opposite of my inital theory!

However, it seems most poeple don't question powershifting and it is not that great when you consider that 2 or 4 "remainder'energy is very useful to allow a shred isntead of mangle and you prob should only shift when in the natural cycle fo combos, you end up on exactly zero energy.

Also, in a general raid wide setting, you take a druid over the rogue for his mana using abilities, like BR, innerv, ability to top himself up and ofc the melee buff. Powershifting to the point of using mana pots seems ridiculous esp when u can put mana ot better use.

Ok, so, assuming you have the requisite skill and reaction, isn't it good?

You seem to be arguing that powershifting isn't good for those who lack the timing or reaction to utilize it, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing.

Assuming one has the timing, has the reaction speed required for it, wouldn't it behoove them to use it to their fullest?

Also, and yes, I find this irritating, shifting out allows us to use certain consumables that, due to our absurd class limitation, we generally do not get the benefit of, such as Drums, haste pots, or Heroic potions. Yes, we lose, like you said, 2-3 white hits in cat, but I think those specific consumables mentioned more than make up the difference within the 15-30 seconds they affect us in cat.

i AM conceding that people should use it if they can.
But its not as good as people think and you should not try it if you are not sure you can do the whole sequence of moves within the 0.5 sec window you have.

The white dmg loss is significant and you should not use if either when u have 2 or 4 energy left as "stub energy" allows a shred to be used a full energy tick in advance. Certainly not to the point of using mana pots.

Actually English is my first language and I did not realise that such abbreviations were frowned upon. I had thought that the first priority was to make myself understood and communicate ideas and such use of 'u' or 'tho"' instead of "you" or 'though' and the more obvious typos where it is quite obvious what the error is, would be tolerated. I do think fast as my thoughts spill out, tending to put more emphasis on substance rather than form.
I do apologise and will try to conform to the correctness, grammatical and lingusitic as well as the cerebral high standards of your forums. These are your forums and as somone who participates at your grace, I do respect your standards even though I would consider them pedantic.

sincerely,

It's not just abbreviations alone but excessive typos and misspellings. I would suggest you look into using the firefox browser, there is a great mod that you can add to it (easily obtained) that will on-the-fly spell check everything you type into a text box. I find it essential for my own use.

Well given that I quoted others and used formatting and tried to articulate my ideas, to dismiss me as making no effort is hurtful!
I am a UK resident in the US and i guess typing on a crap keyboard (bloomberg) with different keys (all the symbols in the wrong place compared to a UK keyboard) don't help.

Back on topic;
I would say that IF (to be confirmed) you miss 2.5 white hits due to powershifting, and the speed and condition required for it (zero energy, a lot less than 0.5 sec to time the shift back) it actually is NOT worth it.
40 energy gain is not worth 2.5 white hits imho.
Mangle is about 2-2.2 white hits for most druids at this level?

Yeah I really enjoy the foxfire spell checker. My grammar is fine, but my spelling isn't my strong suit. I've been known to use words like "convient" instead of convenient, which results in much taunting from my friends ^^.

I can consistantly time my shifts to not be affected by GCD, that is to say, I shift up, and down, within the same .5-1 second time-stamp. Also, after smacking around some mobs in SMV, with 100% consistancy, there is always a white hit between the shifts. This is a white hit with a 3.00 weapon, with a damage range much higher than cat form. However, keep in mind I wasn't spamming the powershift, these were approximately 5-10 seconds apart.

The first white hit, following shifting down, was always within 2 seconds according to my combat log, which sadly only displays to the second. When I say 'within 2 seconds', I mean some times it would be 1 second later, and other times, again, according to the log, it would be 2 seconds later. I am assuming that it's limited only by GCD, so in affect, you're losing 1 white hit, possibly 2, depending, once again, on your timing.

Also, and this is at 2701 AP, 1 mangle should be doing more damage than 2 white hits, on average. Obviously, through buffs, procs, etc., that should change at some point, and while I'm not sure of the exact AP needed, your damage range will need to be close to 550-600 before 2 white hits (assuming non crit) > 1 Mangle. I also assume you're using Mangle as the example since it's the only sensible (Rake-lol) special to use when you have 40 energy.

Except, wait a second, you don't have 40 energy; you actually have 60, since you timed the .5-1 second powershift to coincide with an energy tic, yes?

What I'm getting at, is yes, you lose 1-2 white hits. Yes, it's moderately difficult, and slightly taxing to coordinate powershifting into a DPS cycle. However, it more than makes up for itself by providing you options. 4pt combo, Mangle debuff has 3.5 seconds left, and you're out of energy? Shift up, shift down, Shred for 3k+, energy tic, Rip, Mangle expires, voila! You've maximized your CPs, and you did it only losing 1 white hit's worth of damage.

thank you.

A few questions tho;
doesn't a mangle debuff have to be constatly kept up? Its not that the target had a mangle debuff at the point of rip, but the rip ticks have to have a mangle up to be maximised.
So in your example, 4 combo points, no energy, 3.5 secs left on mangle debuff;
0.0 sec- you get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-1.5 sec you shift out
1.5 sec you shift down- you have 40 energy
2.0 sec you have 60 energy, you shred
3.5 sec Mangle debuff rolls off
4.0 sec Your energy ticks to 38
6.0 sec you energy ticks to 58, you rip WITHOUT mangle
8.0 sec you get 38 energy and you see a weakend rip tick
10.0 sec you get 58 energy, you finally get mangel debuff back

It is still more damage than not powershifting.
But the point is that powershifting is not as good as assumed by many and that people should do it prob only with 0 energy, when its part of a smooth dps cycle and confident of getting it right.
It is not going to give you 40-50dps that is assumed by many.


Am i missing something?

Further, on the timing thing, i think you miss my point. It does not matter when u shift out. Ususally asap. All you need to make sure is you shift back down 1.5-2.0 sec after your last energy saving move. Again, usually as close to 1.5 as possible. Energy tick will always come 2.0 secs after that move and 0.5-0.0 secs after you shift down.

This is why I love these forums, even if I have english as a second language. Just try and you will usually be ok. So well well done with these forums Challen ;-) .

Regarding the topic, I've thought of it before but I don't think I'm skilled enough yet for it to be any useful. However, interesting numbers and tips.

This is what the sequence should look like, all things working perfectly.

-1.0 sec Your energy tics to 42-46, w/e
-0.5 sec You Shred
0.0 sec- You get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-.25 sec You shift up, you white hit
0.25-0.5 sec You shift down- you have 40 energy
1.0 sec You have 60 energy(This is the part people have a problem understanding, and where the timing is crucial.)
1.5 sec You Shred
1.5 - 2.0 sec You white hit
3.0 sec Your energy tics to 38, you white hit
3.5 sec Mangle fades
4.0 sec You white hit
5.0 sec Your energy tics to 58, you white hit
6.0 sec You Rip, you white hit
7.0 sec Your Energy tics to 48, you Mangle, you white hit
8.0 sec Your Rip tics, with a nice hot cup o' mangel

I'm not really sure why you aren't seeing the importance of the timing required for the shift up/down. You understand that the 2 second "Energy Timer" never stops, right? It never resets, it tics constantly. The timing is very much the most important element to powershifting. I strongly suggest you try it, instead of theorizing.

Another point about Mangle/Shred vs 2 white hits and 2.5 seconds, is the fact that Mangle/Shred power Rip, through CPs, whereas white hits do not. So, logically, powershifting allows for faster CP generation, which in turn allows for less time between Rips.

are you telling me that according to your timeline, you can shift down before the 1.5 sec gcd from your first shred expires? Or is the gcd NOT 1.5sec? IMaybe 1sec in cat and that carries over when you shift out?

-0.5 sec You Shred
0.0 sec- You get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-.25 sec You shift up, you white hit
0.25-0.5 sec You shift down- you have 40 energy



you just put the reference point of the start time back to -1 sec "buying" 1 sec.
I just assume that as soon as you have energy you use it then shift up.
You waited 0.5 for first shred then a full 1-1.25sec to shift up. Why?
Give youself more time, esp if you want to pop pots.
My point is simple. Energy ticks every 2 sec regardless. Therfore, as long as your shift up shift down happens somewhere between the 2 ticks, who cares?

But in essence your message that powershifting is good is correct and i agree. I have learnt a lot from this and from other thread on druid theorycarft.
My point is that it does not add 40-50dps and that if you chugging mana pots to fuel your powershifting, you are being overly selfish and not helping your raid, esp given that if it was pure dps they were after they would have taken a rogue.

Your point about getting combo poitns faster is definitely valid.
so all in all, thanks.

As an aside, I was under the impression that with any decent amount of crit (30% and up) Ferocious Bite would provide better returns than Rip. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Ferocious Bite has so many problems compared to Rip, it's silly.

1) Rip ignores AC, Ferocious Bite has an AC check.
2) Rip costs 30 energy, FB consumes everything you have, so it effectively costs 100 energy.
3) Rip scales better w/ AP, assuming Mangle is up.
4) Ferocious Bite returns are extremely crit dependant, and even on crit, rarely provides as much overall damage as a Rip, given equal AP, and again, assuming Mangle is up.

I don't quite understand this point. What is selfish about chugging mana pots to enable powershifting? Unless he's leeching off the guild bank for them or something, I don't see that as hurting anyone but him (that's got to be a tad expensive). I do understand your point about "if they were after pure DPS, they would have taken a rogue"...but that depends on the group. If the group is stuck with him, and they need DPS, then yes, he could reroll...or he could attempt to maximize his DPS contribution by powershifting. That's not selfish, to me.

Anyway, not every group is going to want to min-max to the tenth decimal place (thanks Tseric, or Tigole, or whoever said it, for this expression XD). My guild has a feral druid who runs with us, and I would never dream of asking him to respec, because that's just not the type of guild we are. However, I would certainly look at a thread like this and suggest powershifting to him, because that's how he can get the most out of what he has chosen to do.

By the way, as far as typing with proper English (or at least the best you can manage) goes, you can consider it pedantic if you'd like. Personally, I look at it this way: this forum is a place for serious, rational, thoughtful discussion. We're not just here to throw opinions around without support, or to stubbornly espouse wild theories. We're here to think, to discuss, to learn. Posting in coherent, readable English (or, again, your best attempt) shows that you're here to participate in an earnest fashion. It shows that you think we're worthy of your time. If you don't think we're worthy of your time, then we'll respond in kind. But your response in this thread indicates otherwise, and that's what I like to see.

(edit) Wow, I sound like an arrogant jackass. But I stand by what I said. :-P

One thing to keep in mind is that Catform GCD is 1 second, caster GCD is 1.5. An ideal "power cycle" ends up looking like this with no crits (energy in parenthesis):

00:00 (100)
01:01 Rip (70)
02:00 (90)
02:01 Mangle *1* (50)
03:01 Shred *2* (8)
04:00 (28)
06:00 (48)
06:01 Shred *3* (6)
08:00 (26)
10:00 (46)
10:01 Shred *4* (4)
12:00 (24)
14:00 (44)
14:01 Shred *5* (2)
14:01 -Cat Form
15:01 +Cat Form (40)

You will always do more DPS by letting your energy tic to full and then rip-mangle otherwise you end up having to mangle multiple times per cycle which is bad.

great. thanks for the help.

So 1 sec gcd for cat means that after a special, the GCD is on 1sec even if you shift out?

Also are you suggesting that you start with rip? Have I got wrong end of the stick?
I thought you need to have 5 combo points before you rip.
Another thing i learnt that i did not do before is that if i have to choose between mangle and shred, I always assumed that i had to have mangle debuff up, but i now realise i have more time- as long as mangle debuff is up 2sec after Rip goes in. Is this correct?

Pre 2.0, with enough crit and AP, it could be better on a low AC mob.

With mangle buffing rip and most bosses seemingly having higher DR, Rip is where it's at. For me a 5 point rip will net me over 3k damage (>500/tick) A 5 point FB crit might be lucky to hit 4k at the upper end, with hits for <1.8k.. This averages out to around 2.6k/FB.

Three out of four ain't bad, right? I'm curious about the Abacus of Violent Odds.

My normal catform DPS, unbuffed completely, on the character sheet is 220. I'm deep feral (mangle, yay), although I have none of the cat-form specific talents. What do I need to know, calculate, or otherwise figure out to properly select between Abacus of Violent Odds (which I'm fairly sure is vastly superior for a rogue/dps warrior, what with the dual wield) and Core of Ar'kelos? The simple character sheet test of clicking on them and seeing the change to my character sheet shows the Abacus as being superior, but I'm curious if catform reliance on specials doesn't tip the balance (and the 10 second differential doesn't even them out, raw-wise).

The argument on prioritizing the drop is irrelevent, I've got it in the bank. I did a search, didn't see a post related to druids on the abacus (although it may have cunningly been hidden in a thread on a different topic).