Druid cat dps- Powershifting - Page 2

HaklePrime · 03/27/07, 6:23 PM

This is what the sequence should look like, all things working perfectly.

-1.0 sec Your energy tics to 42-46, w/e
-0.5 sec You Shred
0.0 sec- You get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-.25 sec You shift up, you white hit
0.25-0.5 sec You shift down- you have 40 energy
1.0 sec You have 60 energy(This is the part people have a problem understanding, and where the timing is crucial.)
1.5 sec You Shred
1.5 - 2.0 sec You white hit
3.0 sec Your energy tics to 38, you white hit
3.5 sec Mangle fades
4.0 sec You white hit
5.0 sec Your energy tics to 58, you white hit
6.0 sec You Rip, you white hit
7.0 sec Your Energy tics to 48, you Mangle, you white hit
8.0 sec Your Rip tics, with a nice hot cup o' mangel

I'm not really sure why you aren't seeing the importance of the timing required for the shift up/down. You understand that the 2 second "Energy Timer" never stops, right? It never resets, it tics constantly. The timing is very much the most important element to powershifting. I strongly suggest you try it, instead of theorizing.

Another point about Mangle/Shred vs 2 white hits and 2.5 seconds, is the fact that Mangle/Shred power Rip, through CPs, whereas white hits do not. So, logically, powershifting allows for faster CP generation, which in turn allows for less time between Rips.

hazelnutter · 03/27/07, 6:38 PM

are you telling me that according to your timeline, you can shift down before the 1.5 sec gcd from your first shred expires? Or is the gcd NOT 1.5sec? IMaybe 1sec in cat and that carries over when you shift out?

-0.5 sec You Shred
0.0 sec- You get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-.25 sec You shift up, you white hit
0.25-0.5 sec You shift down- you have 40 energy

you just put the reference point of the start time back to -1 sec "buying" 1 sec.
I just assume that as soon as you have energy you use it then shift up.
You waited 0.5 for first shred then a full 1-1.25sec to shift up. Why?
Give youself more time, esp if you want to pop pots.
My point is simple. Energy ticks every 2 sec regardless. Therfore, as long as your shift up shift down happens somewhere between the 2 ticks, who cares?

But in essence your message that powershifting is good is correct and i agree. I have learnt a lot from this and from other thread on druid theorycarft.
My point is that it does not add 40-50dps and that if you chugging mana pots to fuel your powershifting, you are being overly selfish and not helping your raid, esp given that if it was pure dps they were after they would have taken a rogue.

Your point about getting combo poitns faster is definitely valid.
so all in all, thanks.

Umph · 03/27/07, 6:42 PM

As an aside, I was under the impression that with any decent amount of crit (30% and up) Ferocious Bite would provide better returns than Rip. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

HaklePrime · 03/27/07, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by hazelnutter

you just put the reference point of the start time back to -1 sec "buying" 1 sec.
I just assume that as soon as you have energy you use it then shift up.
You waited 0.5 for first shred then a full 1-1.25sec to shift up. Why?
Give youself more time, esp if you want to pop pots.

I simply threw those there to illustrate that when you time the shift up is important. Simply saying "I have 4cp, and no energy, ok, POWERSHIFT!" isn't how it functions, and that is how you displayed it. Your example need a framework, and a baseline of where the "Energy Timer" was. The Shred at -0.5 wasn't really thought out, again, simply illustrating that you indeed used energy before you shifted, generating the 4th CP, and firing the GCD. I suppose it should be closer to -0.75 or so.

Powershifting is the only reliable way we can exceed 1k DPS thusfar, with current gear and available potions/buffs/procs. Without it, you'll be hovering around 850-950, maximum. I politely challenge anyone to prove otherwise, and should you succeed, please provide a WWS or a parse of some kind, as I, and others I imagine, would be greatly interested in your DPS cycle.

HaklePrime · 03/27/07, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by ruro

As an aside, I was under the impression that with any decent amount of crit (30% and up) Ferocious Bite would provide better returns than Rip. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Ferocious Bite has so many problems compared to Rip, it's silly.

1) Rip ignores AC, Ferocious Bite has an AC check.
2) Rip costs 30 energy, FB consumes everything you have, so it effectively costs 100 energy.
3) Rip scales better w/ AP, assuming Mangle is up.
4) Ferocious Bite returns are extremely crit dependant, and even on crit, rarely provides as much overall damage as a Rip, given equal AP, and again, assuming Mangle is up.

• Vulajin · 03/27/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by hazelnutter

My point is that it does not add 40-50dps and that if you chugging mana pots to fuel your powershifting, you are being overly selfish and not helping your raid, esp given that if it was pure dps they were after they would have taken a rogue.
so all in all, thanks.

I don't quite understand this point. What is selfish about chugging mana pots to enable powershifting? Unless he's leeching off the guild bank for them or something, I don't see that as hurting anyone but him (that's got to be a tad expensive). I do understand your point about "if they were after pure DPS, they would have taken a rogue"...but that depends on the group. If the group is stuck with him, and they need DPS, then yes, he could reroll...or he could attempt to maximize his DPS contribution by powershifting. That's not selfish, to me.

Anyway, not every group is going to want to min-max to the tenth decimal place (thanks Tseric, or Tigole, or whoever said it, for this expression XD). My guild has a feral druid who runs with us, and I would never dream of asking him to respec, because that's just not the type of guild we are. However, I would certainly look at a thread like this and suggest powershifting to him, because that's how he can get the most out of what he has chosen to do.

By the way, as far as typing with proper English (or at least the best you can manage) goes, you can consider it pedantic if you'd like. Personally, I look at it this way: this forum is a place for serious, rational, thoughtful discussion. We're not just here to throw opinions around without support, or to stubbornly espouse wild theories. We're here to think, to discuss, to learn. Posting in coherent, readable English (or, again, your best attempt) shows that you're here to participate in an earnest fashion. It shows that you think we're worthy of your time. If you don't think we're worthy of your time, then we'll respond in kind. But your response in this thread indicates otherwise, and that's what I like to see.

(edit) Wow, I sound like an arrogant jackass. But I stand by what I said. :-P

Boevis · 03/27/07, 7:59 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that Catform GCD is 1 second, caster GCD is 1.5. An ideal "power cycle" ends up looking like this with no crits (energy in parenthesis):

00:00 (100)
01:01 Rip (70)
02:00 (90)
02:01 Mangle *1* (50)
03:01 Shred *2* (8)
04:00 (28)
06:00 (48)
06:01 Shred *3* (6)
08:00 (26)
10:00 (46)
10:01 Shred *4* (4)
12:00 (24)
14:00 (44)
14:01 Shred *5* (2)
14:01 -Cat Form
15:01 +Cat Form (40)

You will always do more DPS by letting your energy tic to full and then rip-mangle otherwise you end up having to mangle multiple times per cycle which is bad.

hazelnutter · 03/28/07, 9:40 AM

great. thanks for the help.

So 1 sec gcd for cat means that after a special, the GCD is on 1sec even if you shift out?

Also are you suggesting that you start with rip? Have I got wrong end of the stick?
I thought you need to have 5 combo points before you rip.
Another thing i learnt that i did not do before is that if i have to choose between mangle and shred, I always assumed that i had to have mangle debuff up, but i now realise i have more time- as long as mangle debuff is up 2sec after Rip goes in. Is this correct?

Melthar · 03/28/07, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by ruro

As an aside, I was under the impression that with any decent amount of crit (30% and up) Ferocious Bite would provide better returns than Rip. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Pre 2.0, with enough crit and AP, it could be better on a low AC mob.

With mangle buffing rip and most bosses seemingly having higher DR, Rip is where it's at. For me a 5 point rip will net me over 3k damage (>500/tick) A 5 point FB crit might be lucky to hit 4k at the upper end, with hits for <1.8k.. This averages out to around 2.6k/FB.

Dakous · 04/02/07, 4:01 AM

Three out of four ain't bad, right? I'm curious about the Abacus of Violent Odds.

My normal catform DPS, unbuffed completely, on the character sheet is 220. I'm deep feral (mangle, yay), although I have none of the cat-form specific talents. What do I need to know, calculate, or otherwise figure out to properly select between Abacus of Violent Odds (which I'm fairly sure is vastly superior for a rogue/dps warrior, what with the dual wield) and Core of Ar'kelos? The simple character sheet test of clicking on them and seeing the change to my character sheet shows the Abacus as being superior, but I'm curious if catform reliance on specials doesn't tip the balance (and the 10 second differential doesn't even them out, raw-wise).

The argument on prioritizing the drop is irrelevent, I've got it in the bank. I did a search, didn't see a post related to druids on the abacus (although it may have cunningly been hidden in a thread on a different topic).

Solstice · 04/02/07, 10:50 AM

I cant offer you any proof but my gut feeling on this is that Core will add a fair amount more dps. For one thing, I'm not convinced as to the benefit of haste rating for cat form as (unless it lowers the gcd which i'm pretty sure it doesn't) it only increases white damage. Sure this is nice for dual wield where the majority of dps is from white damage, and also nice for warriors or bear form dps (lol) due to the increased rage gen. But considering cat dps is roughly 60% yellow damage I think Core is superior. Additionally being a "use" rather than a proc means you can use it at a suitable time to maximise it's benefit, ie with 100 energy and 5 cps, which grants 2 rips and a full 5 point cycle the extra benefit of 200AP.

HaklePrime · 04/02/07, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dakous

Three out of four ain't bad, right? I'm curious about the Abacus of Violent Odds.

My normal catform DPS, unbuffed completely, on the character sheet is 220. I'm deep feral (mangle, yay), although I have none of the cat-form specific talents. What do I need to know, calculate, or otherwise figure out to properly select between Abacus of Violent Odds (which I'm fairly sure is vastly superior for a rogue/dps warrior, what with the dual wield) and Core of Ar'kelos? The simple character sheet test of clicking on them and seeing the change to my character sheet shows the Abacus as being superior, but I'm curious if catform reliance on specials doesn't tip the balance (and the 10 second differential doesn't even them out, raw-wise).

The argument on prioritizing the drop is irrelevent, I've got it in the bank. I did a search, didn't see a post related to druids on the abacus (although it may have cunningly been hidden in a thread on a different topic).

While this isn't exactly on-topic, I think I can tie it in quite nicely.

The Abacus, in my opinion, is subpar for a druid. It is a 15 second clickie, that provides us around 5ish extra white hits every 2min(that is the CD, right?). Alright, no sweat, it has a passive AP affect on it as well. Unfortunately, that (the trinket)does nothing for our primary damage, which is a Mangled Shred. With the right front-loading, Shred should out damage your white hits in a stationary tank-n-spank fight, and it's silly not to cater to this.

But! Don't discount Haste rating because of this, especially if you have 2pc Malorne bonus.

Shortly after my brief examples to hazelnutter earlier in this thread, I was fortunate enough to get ahold of the T4 shoulder, making my 2 piece bonus, and, well, wow. My original stance on powershifting remains, unless you have 2pc Malorne. It's simply not worth risking losing a potential proc for a bit of "extra" energy. It procs so often, it's staggering at times, often proccing 2-4 times in the same Rip-5cp-Rip cycle.

That being said, I strongly urge anyone with 2pc Malorne to add Dragonspine Trophy to their list. While yes, it does remove a bit of potential AP in a trinket slot, it allows us more white hits, potentially proccing the 2pc even more. While yes, the Abacus would probably provide a similar effect, it's impossible to coordinate the Use effect with 2pc proccing :P

Powershift unless you have 2pc Malorne!
AP unless you have 2pc Malorne, then go with passive haste trinkets! (Only one so far!)

Zeln · 04/02/07, 2:17 PM

It's a 10 second click every 2 minutes that moves cat speed from 1.0 to .8 and bear attack speed from 2.5 to 2.0.

So its 2 white attacks in cat and 1 in bear

HaklePrime · 04/02/07, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Zeln

It's a 10 second click every 2 minutes that moves cat speed from 1.0 to .8 and bear attack speed from 2.5 to 2.0.

So its 2 white attacks in cat and 1 in bear

Bleh, even more awful than I thought. Definitely go with a trinket with passive AP, and if you must get a clickie, get one to front-load your shreds/Rip.

Psy · 04/02/07, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by hazelnutter

are you telling me that according to your timeline, you can shift down before the 1.5 sec gcd from your first shred expires?

Exiting a form is not affected by and does not trigger a GCD.