Druid cat dps- Powershifting
 

Firstly i am new to these forums and i really looked long and hard to see if there was another thread i could post under instead of starting a new one.

This is about raid dps as cat. It is widely accepted that the basics for sustained cat dps is obviously mangle+shred+rip. Beyond this and that some bosses (e.g. Doomwalker) cannot be ripped, it seems that there is not a lot of skill involved. I keep an eye on dot timer so that magle is up, and otherwise i just shred away and rip at 5 combo points. The real skill is universal to all melee dps which is aggro management and moving/keeping contact with target on bosses like Gruul.
In a lot of discussion about viability of cat dps, a lot say that cat can match rogues if you are "skilled", and seems mainly to refer to powershifting. Supposedly the "art" of squeezing extra energy.

I question this and would be interested to know if this has been quantified.
1)Using shred all the time very rarely leaves you with zero energy and so does the inevitable miss/parry/dodge. So shifting out loses whatever you have left.
2) Global cooldown straight after the last ability that took your energy to near zero.
3)Global cooldown if u take a pot while shifted out.
4) Global cooldown once you shift back to cat.

You gain 20 energy every 2 secs. Yet you have minimum 1 gcd or maybe 3 if u powershift.
So powershifitng costs huge amounts of mana yet gets a maximum of 25 energy gain. Often a lot less.
Also, you lose the opportunity cost of white dpsing that can proc a Omen of Clarity.

What are thoughts or critiques of the above anaylsis? (or lack thereof?)

Here is the theorycraft (maybe be flawed and would welcome feedback)

1)Energy wasted; given 42 energy cost for shred, you are often left with anything between 0-8 energy when you decide to shift out. It's acutally rare to get zero energy exactly and so lets assume an average of 3, given that most would not powershift on 8, and the mean of the other 4 is 3.
2)So timeline assumption (optimal powershifting, i.e. you shift purely for energy and you have superhuman robotic reactions allowing you to lose no time between punchign keys!;
time=0.0sec ; GCD triggered after last move.
time=0.0sec ; shift out (you can shift out during gcd?)
time=1.5sec ; shift back in
time=2.5sec ; your first white hit goes in. (is this correct?)
time=3.0sec ; your first yellow hit goes in.
3)Lost dps due to powershifting is 2.5 sec of white dmg
4)Energy gained is 40*(4secs-1.5sec)=25
less expected OoC = 2.5*42energy*OoC proc % (i dont know this)

WOuld be grateful for contributions and clarifications on the above.
But straight away, you CANNOT lose 2.5 secs fo white dmg given that that is more than mangle. PLus the ignored mana costs (druids often contribute by healign themselves and ressing so mana cost is not zero) and I conclude that you should NEVER powershift.

A few things to note:

1) Shifting out ignores GCD, so, if you're quick, and shift immediately following a special, you can shift down as the GCD wears off, effectively costing no time whatsoever.

2) When you shift out, your swing timer is reset, and you get a near-instant white hit from your melee weapon. This is particularly effective with the slower maces/staves we've all got these days.

3) EnergyWatch. Use it, love it. You can time your shifts to occur right before an energy tic would happen, which causes you to not 'lose' any energy, aside from the 1-8 remaining from your last special.

I powershift like mad. In fact, I use it so much, I've taken to popping mana pots every so often. There is nothing we do that generates the DPS that a mangled Shred or Rip are capable of, and I use powershifting to amplify these as much as I can.

1) Shifting out ignores GCD, so, if you're quick, and shift immediately following a special, you can shift down as the GCD wears off, effectively costing no time whatsoever.
ye i assumed that. Also assumes that you have perfect superhuman timing and not spamming the cat form button which will cost u 0.1-02 secs

2) When you shift out, your swing timer is reset, and you get a near-instant white hit from your melee weapon. This is particularly effective with the slower maces/staves we've all got these days.
this is the thing i am uncertain of. when u target a lvl1 critter, i.e. u press attack, it does not hit it as u press the button, there is a delay. Would love some clarification.

3) EnergyWatch. Use it, love it. You can time your shifts to occur right before an energy tic would happen, which causes you to not 'lose' any energy, aside from the 1-8 remaining from your last special.
"timing" is irrelevant. you do not need energy watch for this. it's only for timing your openign move. there is no optimal time to start the powershift process....it is always straight after the last energy tick that enabled u to do the special. That also assumesyou are going to shift and does not allow for reaction time, esp the waste of shifting if your special misses/dodges/blocked/parried.

Well it seems that given the global timing of energy ticks, you are right and you can totally not miss out on an energy tick. It depends on white hit timer. In reality, it is hard to do and prob requires skilled shift back in on GCD rather than most amatuers who prob spam the shift button and hence losing 0.2 secs which can lose them an energy tick.
Also you have to allow 0.1-0.3 sec of reaction on whether your last special "got through" which would make powershfting highly skilled requiring very good reaction and hence the opposite of my inital theory!

However, it seems most poeple don't question powershifting and it is not that great when you consider that 2 or 4 "remainder'energy is very useful to allow a shred isntead of mangle and you prob should only shift when in the natural cycle fo combos, you end up on exactly zero energy.

Also, in a general raid wide setting, you take a druid over the rogue for his mana using abilities, like BR, innerv, ability to top himself up and ofc the melee buff. Powershifting to the point of using mana pots seems ridiculous esp when u can put mana ot better use.

Ok, so, assuming you have the requisite skill and reaction, isn't it good?

You seem to be arguing that powershifting isn't good for those who lack the timing or reaction to utilize it, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing.

Assuming one has the timing, has the reaction speed required for it, wouldn't it behoove them to use it to their fullest?

Also, and yes, I find this irritating, shifting out allows us to use certain consumables that, due to our absurd class limitation, we generally do not get the benefit of, such as Drums, haste pots, or Heroic potions. Yes, we lose, like you said, 2-3 white hits in cat, but I think those specific consumables mentioned more than make up the difference within the 15-30 seconds they affect us in cat.

i AM conceding that people should use it if they can.
But its not as good as people think and you should not try it if you are not sure you can do the whole sequence of moves within the 0.5 sec window you have.

The white dmg loss is significant and you should not use if either when u have 2 or 4 energy left as "stub energy" allows a shred to be used a full energy tick in advance. Certainly not to the point of using mana pots.

Come on, this isn't even a question of "grammar" and I accept that English likely isn't your first language. But every other word has a typo or abbreviation and it's like you aren't even looking at the keyboard. Posts need to show more effort than something you'd type into an AIM window or your guildchat. This is painful to even try to read.

Actually English is my first language and I did not realise that such abbreviations were frowned upon. I had thought that the first priority was to make myself understood and communicate ideas and such use of 'u' or 'tho"' instead of "you" or 'though' and the more obvious typos where it is quite obvious what the error is, would be tolerated. I do think fast as my thoughts spill out, tending to put more emphasis on substance rather than form.
I do apologise and will try to conform to the correctness, grammatical and lingusitic as well as the cerebral high standards of your forums. These are your forums and as somone who participates at your grace, I do respect your standards even though I would consider them pedantic.

sincerely,

It's not just abbreviations alone but excessive typos and misspellings. I would suggest you look into using the firefox browser, there is a great mod that you can add to it (easily obtained) that will on-the-fly spell check everything you type into a text box. I find it essential for my own use.

Well given that I quoted others and used formatting and tried to articulate my ideas, to dismiss me as making no effort is hurtful!
I am a UK resident in the US and i guess typing on a crap keyboard (bloomberg) with different keys (all the symbols in the wrong place compared to a UK keyboard) don't help.

Back on topic;
I would say that IF (to be confirmed) you miss 2.5 white hits due to powershifting, and the speed and condition required for it (zero energy, a lot less than 0.5 sec to time the shift back) it actually is NOT worth it.
40 energy gain is not worth 2.5 white hits imho.
Mangle is about 2-2.2 white hits for most druids at this level?

Yeah I really enjoy the foxfire spell checker. My grammar is fine, but my spelling isn't my strong suit. I've been known to use words like "convient" instead of convenient, which results in much taunting from my friends ^^.

I can consistantly time my shifts to not be affected by GCD, that is to say, I shift up, and down, within the same .5-1 second time-stamp. Also, after smacking around some mobs in SMV, with 100% consistancy, there is always a white hit between the shifts. This is a white hit with a 3.00 weapon, with a damage range much higher than cat form. However, keep in mind I wasn't spamming the powershift, these were approximately 5-10 seconds apart.

The first white hit, following shifting down, was always within 2 seconds according to my combat log, which sadly only displays to the second. When I say 'within 2 seconds', I mean some times it would be 1 second later, and other times, again, according to the log, it would be 2 seconds later. I am assuming that it's limited only by GCD, so in affect, you're losing 1 white hit, possibly 2, depending, once again, on your timing.

Also, and this is at 2701 AP, 1 mangle should be doing more damage than 2 white hits, on average. Obviously, through buffs, procs, etc., that should change at some point, and while I'm not sure of the exact AP needed, your damage range will need to be close to 550-600 before 2 white hits (assuming non crit) > 1 Mangle. I also assume you're using Mangle as the example since it's the only sensible (Rake-lol) special to use when you have 40 energy.

Except, wait a second, you don't have 40 energy; you actually have 60, since you timed the .5-1 second powershift to coincide with an energy tic, yes?

What I'm getting at, is yes, you lose 1-2 white hits. Yes, it's moderately difficult, and slightly taxing to coordinate powershifting into a DPS cycle. However, it more than makes up for itself by providing you options. 4pt combo, Mangle debuff has 3.5 seconds left, and you're out of energy? Shift up, shift down, Shred for 3k+, energy tic, Rip, Mangle expires, voila! You've maximized your CPs, and you did it only losing 1 white hit's worth of damage.

[off topic]
Good lord, that's the most dramatic turn-around I've ever seen from someone called out on grammar.
[/offtopic]

thank you.

A few questions tho;
doesn't a mangle debuff have to be constatly kept up? Its not that the target had a mangle debuff at the point of rip, but the rip ticks have to have a mangle up to be maximised.
So in your example, 4 combo points, no energy, 3.5 secs left on mangle debuff;
0.0 sec- you get 4 points up and you have 0/2/4 energy
0.0-1.5 sec you shift out
1.5 sec you shift down- you have 40 energy
2.0 sec you have 60 energy, you shred
3.5 sec Mangle debuff rolls off
4.0 sec Your energy ticks to 38
6.0 sec you energy ticks to 58, you rip WITHOUT mangle
8.0 sec you get 38 energy and you see a weakend rip tick
10.0 sec you get 58 energy, you finally get mangel debuff back

It is still more damage than not powershifting.
But the point is that powershifting is not as good as assumed by many and that people should do it prob only with 0 energy, when its part of a smooth dps cycle and confident of getting it right.
It is not going to give you 40-50dps that is assumed by many.


Am i missing something?

Further, on the timing thing, i think you miss my point. It does not matter when u shift out. Ususally asap. All you need to make sure is you shift back down 1.5-2.0 sec after your last energy saving move. Again, usually as close to 1.5 as possible. Energy tick will always come 2.0 secs after that move and 0.5-0.0 secs after you shift down.

This is why I love these forums, even if I have english as a second language. Just try and you will usually be ok. So well well done with these forums Challen ;-) .

Regarding the topic, I've thought of it before but I don't think I'm skilled enough yet for it to be any useful. However, interesting numbers and tips.