Hello, first off I would like to just say ya'll are an awesome guild and I remember back in the days when I was on this server in Myth's Fury I remember yall being the best guild so I thought I'd come here to ask my question:
15/41/5 is pretty much going to be the optimal dagger spec for PvE content. 41/20 Mutilate is fairly competitive but is hamstrung by the fact that there are a decent amount of poison-immune raid targets.
I don't think you can cap it with current gear, and because it now increases your total energy intake as well as white damage it's slightly better than it used to be(relative to crit). My general philosophy when selecting gear has been to pick up the pieces that have the highest combined total of offensive stats, and checking the very close cases in the DPS spreadsheet.
Actually you can cap it with current gear it appears. I've seen a few rogues on armory with over 277 hit rating plus precision plus weapon expertise. 278 from gear seems to be the cap right now for level 73 mobs when you have precision and weapon expertise.
The spreadsheet also uses the 277+ number it appears because when I goto straight +8 hit rating gems that when I get over 277 I get more dps from AP or crit gems than from more hit.
Actually you can cap it with current gear it appears. I've seen a few rogues on armory with over 277 hit rating plus precision plus weapon expertise. 278 from gear seems to be the cap right now for level 73 mobs when you have precision and weapon expertise.
The spreadsheet also uses the 277+ number it appears because when I goto straight +8 hit rating gems that when I get over 277 I get more dps from AP or crit gems than from more hit.
Using 24.6% hit with 15.8 rating per 1% would mean 388.68 rating without precision to hit the cap, 309.68 with precision. Using pre-Crezax hit rating from weapon expertise would give you another 0.4% hit (10*0.04%), putting the cap at 303.36 rating, post-Crezax it'd be 2% (10*0.2%) more hit or 278.08 rating. I think Pf added so you can use the new/old values as you wish by toggling the "New Blue Post on +skill" option in the "Talents" tab.
To me the post by Crezax seems a bit odd, but it should be rather easily to test. Get 279 hit rating and you shouldn't miss against 73's, providing the "new" weapon skill ratings are correct, but you should get some rare misses (1.6%?) if the old ones are correct.
Actually you can cap it with current gear it appears. I've seen a few rogues on armory with over 277 hit rating plus precision plus weapon expertise. 278 from gear seems to be the cap right now for level 73 mobs when you have precision and weapon expertise.
The spreadsheet also uses the 277+ number it appears because when I goto straight +8 hit rating gems that when I get over 277 I get more dps from AP or crit gems than from more hit.
Yeah i think Rj may be on to something here. Right now, i am sitting at about 270 IIRC and i am not missing anymore than 2% of the time and honestly i think this may be a little high, i would need to check Recap when i get home.
But Ippon who we all know and love is sitting at 302 i think, (24.15 hr) Good thing i know his HR and not my own, said he is missing at about 1.9% which would be pretty consistant with what i am seeing myself and have about 30 less Hit rating.
At the same time he said he didn't get any misses on Fire Elementals while farming a few days ago.
I'm standing at 99% hit with my current gear, I could easily pass the hit cap at the moment but I don't want to step even one hit rating into 0 returns.
If you count the weapon-skill it is extremely easy. My gear looks like this...
(15%) 236hr from gear
5% from talents
4% from weapon skill (16, skill, not rating.)
This is without even sacrificing much attack power or crit... I have 1500 ap and 21.2% crit with a sword spec.
I also have questions based on raid DPS, or my lack thereof lately with my 41/0/20 Mutilate build.
I have almost the exact build of our guilds main rogue, but he out dps's the entire raid daily, whereas I am lucky to be third or fourth in line. I realize he has better gear and enchants (I'm still rocking the blue daggers while he has the Moroes and Night Blade to work with, PLUS dual mongoose enchants).
STALKER ALERT! I'm guessing you'd be talking about Oxo? He's got like 80 less AP than you, but over 7% crit and your hit values are generally the same, that's a solid gear difference without getting into the weapon gap. The Night Blade is a VERY good weapon, check out the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread for some people's experiences with it.
41/0/20 is fairly weak compared to 41/20/0, and even weaker compared to 15/41/5. Given equal playskill, you should be able to match his dps with a full combat daggers build, but if he switched to 41/20/0 that might change.
Any reason for the utility build? I ran a fairly heavy Subtlety build with Mutilate for leveling, for things like Ghostly strike in soloing and 5 mans, and I think it served its purpose. But in raiding? If you want to keep Imp Sap but get more mileage out of mutilate, go 41/13/7. You get Imp SnD, some precision but still retain your heroic mode utility. 3/3 Imp SnD is pretty key in getting more finishers off with your Mutilate build and keeping Find Weakness up a lot more.
Yeah i think Rj may be on to something here. Right now, i am sitting at about 270 IIRC and i am not missing anymore than 2% of the time and honestly i think this may be a little high, i would need to check Recap when i get home.
But Ippon who we all know and love is sitting at 302 i think, (24.15 hr) Good thing i know his HR and not my own, said he is missing at about 1.9% which would be pretty consistant with what i am seeing myself and have about 30 less Hit rating.
At the same time he said he didn't get any misses on Fire Elementals while farming a few days ago.
I tested going with 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (2%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.718%) and 5% from Precision. With the numbers Crezax posted I'd have about 25.1% hit, 0.5% over the hit cap if you use the 24.6% number.
Over 1205 swings 23 missed (1.909%) on Doomwalker and Kazzak, no other mobs attacked. I can think of two explanations why I was missing:
1) 24.6% isn't the hit cap.
2) Crezax's post is wrong.
Using the old numbers for weapon skill we'd get 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (0.4%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.144%) and 5% from Precision. A total of 22.94% to hit or 1.656% chance of missing, it's slightly off from the 1.909% from the test but considering the small sample size it's about in line with what we expected.
To me the old weapon skill rating seems to still be in effect, anyone else got any other results?
I also have questions based on raid DPS, or my lack thereof lately with my 41/0/20 Mutilate build.
I have almost the exact build of our guilds main rogue, but he out dps's the entire raid daily, whereas I am lucky to be third or fourth in line. I realize he has better gear and enchants (I'm still rocking the blue daggers while he has the Moroes and Night Blade to work with, PLUS dual mongoose enchants).
Do you think I can benefit from switching to the above mentioned 15/41/5 PvE build?
Is my problem directly related to my lack of good enchants and subpar daggers?
Any help or advice is appreciated guys, you are the ones with the knowledge, and I thank you for your help.
hit hit hit. Ive ran the same build as you and the biggest increase in dps I saw was when I dragged my hit up closer to 200 and above.
You have to remember for a 41/0/20 spec there's no precision or WE which really kills your white damage and even specials if your so low you miss muts.
I tested going with 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (2%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.718%) and 5% from Precision. With the numbers Crezax posted I'd have about 25.1% hit, 0.5% over the hit cap if you use the 24.6% number.
Over 1205 swings 23 missed (1.909%) on Doomwalker and Kazzak, no other mobs attacked. I can think of two explanations why I was missing:
1) 24.6% isn't the hit cap.
2) Crezax's post is wrong.
Using the old numbers for weapon skill we'd get 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (0.4%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.144%) and 5% from Precision. A total of 22.94% to hit or 1.656% chance of missing, it's slightly off from the 1.909% from the test but considering the small sample size it's about in line with what we expected.
To me the old weapon skill rating seems to still be in effect, anyone else got any other results?
Could you go do some testing on the Ashtongue Corruptor mobs in Shadowmoon Valley? (this guy, for example). That would eliminate any uncertainty over exactly what the DW hit cap is vs +3 mobs (as they're level 70), and since they're immune and non-aggro until you attack their totems, you should be able to get a good long parse very easily (at least if noone comes along to do the quest).
Could you go do some testing on the Ashtongue Corruptor mobs in Shadowmoon Valley? (this guy, for example). That would eliminate any uncertainty over exactly what the DW hit cap is vs +3 mobs (as they're level 70), and since they're immune and non-aggro until you attack their totems, you should be able to get a good long parse very easily (at least if noone comes along to do the quest).
I'll go there now and do some parsing.
will post the results in the rogue dps spreadsheet though
Thank yall for the help. I speced to 15/41/5 for raiding. One thing I noticed is that unlike my old spec I don't add up combo points to fast. And since I don't have imp eviserate, the dmg from evis is pretty gimp. Because of this, should I just slice and dice when I get my 5 combo points or still use evis when slice and dice still has time left on it? My eviserate highest crits barely over damage my backstab normal crits which seem to be around 1600 in karazan.
I don't know if the little better crit on the 2nd boots are worth loosing the hit on the 1rst ones because with the 2nd boots, I only have 99hit rating + 5/5 precision.
Thank yall for the help. I speced to 15/41/5 for raiding. One thing I noticed is that unlike my old spec I don't add up combo points to fast. And since I don't have imp eviserate, the dmg from evis is pretty gimp. Because of this, should I just slice and dice when I get my 5 combo points or still use evis when slice and dice still has time left on it? My eviserate highest crits barely over damage my backstab normal crits which seem to be around 1600 in karazan.
I highly recommend spending some time playing with gear and spec in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet downloadable here: http://rogue.bleedo.net/
That being said, with Combat Daggers (15/41/5), you really shouldn't be using Eviserate. Thanks to Combat Potency you now have a little extra energy, but a fully talented S&D is 30 seconds, each backstab is 60 energy, and you get 1 combo point per backstab, so every 30 seconds you have enough energy for a 5 point S&D, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes and Combat Potency means you should never have S&D down, and might even get in an extra backstab from time to time, but NEVER let S&D drop it is a 30% increase to white damage which is about 60% of your damage combat daggers.
I don't know if the little better crit on the 2nd boots are worth loosing the hit on the 1rst ones because with the 2nd boots, I only have 99hit rating + 5/5 precision.
Thanks in advance for responses.
With a Combat Build you want as much hit as you can get as long as you aren't going over 280 or so hit rating. For most cases you will do more damage with The Master' Threads, and the others don't even offer a big stamina upgrade so there is really no reason to use them over the BoE Blue... Go-Go TBC Itemization.
I tested going with 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (2%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.718%) and 5% from Precision. With the numbers Crezax posted I'd have about 25.1% hit, 0.5% over the hit cap if you use the 24.6% number.
Over 1205 swings 23 missed (1.909%) on Doomwalker and Kazzak, no other mobs attacked. I can think of two explanations why I was missing:
1) 24.6% isn't the hit cap.
2) Crezax's post is wrong.
Using the old numbers for weapon skill we'd get 275 hit rating (17.4%), 10 weapon expertise (0.4%), and 3.59 from Latro's (0.144%) and 5% from Precision. A total of 22.94% to hit or 1.656% chance of missing, it's slightly off from the 1.909% from the test but considering the small sample size it's about in line with what we expected.
To me the old weapon skill rating seems to still be in effect, anyone else got any other results?
1) The +swords from sword rating seems to be quantized. That is, if you equip Latro's, which gives enough sword rating for about 3.6 sword skill, you gain exactly .12% crit, consistant with only gaining 3 sword skill, which is also what your skill rating reflects. So I would assume under the "old" model that it also gives only .12% hit rating. Doesn't change the numbers that much, just something to keep in mind.
2) Under the "old" model, we'd expect to see a miss rate of 1.64%, meaning that over 1205 attacks, the expectation would be to miss 19.8 of them with a standard deviation of 4.4. This means that you're less than one standard deviation from the mean, hence your results are totally consistant with the old model. Would require more testing to be absolutely certain, but this sounds like pretty decent evidence that Crezax's post is wrong.
yeah the highest DPS build that also has some PvP utility is my 41/20/0 build...I spank the dmg meters and can put a hurting on most classes in PvP except warrior (unless I 5 point cold blood envenom). I seriously suggest if you have the prince dagger and the moroes dagger you'll see insane dmg!
STALKER ALERT! I'm guessing you'd be talking about Oxo? He's got like 80 less AP than you, but over 7% crit and your hit values are generally the same, that's a solid gear difference without getting into the weapon gap. The Night Blade is a VERY good weapon, check out the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread for some people's experiences with it.
41/0/20 is fairly weak compared to 41/20/0, and even weaker compared to 15/41/5. Given equal playskill, you should be able to match his dps with a full combat daggers build, but if he switched to 41/20/0 that might change.
Any reason for the utility build? I ran a fairly heavy Subtlety build with Mutilate for leveling, for things like Ghostly strike in soloing and 5 mans, and I think it served its purpose. But in raiding? If you want to keep Imp Sap but get more mileage out of mutilate, go 41/13/7. You get Imp SnD, some precision but still retain your heroic mode utility. 3/3 Imp SnD is pretty key in getting more finishers off with your Mutilate build and keeping Find Weakness up a lot more.
Yep, I am of course talking about Oxo. He is by far the best rogue I've ever had the pleasure of playing with and I do not expect to ever compete with him as far as build knowledge or squeezing the most out of my class like he can. I don't factor in equal playskill either, he's head and shoulders above me, I just try to soak up all the knowledge he gives me so I can hang in there on the raid meters on nights when he isn't able to raid.
I am going to respec combat daggers and maybe hope for a couple better daggers to come my way, what is keeping me from respeccing this instant is the fact that I have no fast OH dagger that is raid ready. I think it will take some well calculated instance runs and maybe a little bit of luck on my part but I think I can do it. Also guys, thanks for the great advice, you helped out a great deal.
03/28/07, 10:51 AM
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