Aadar

Whether or not a Balance druid is a good choice for bringing on a raid instead of a different DPS caster is a good question.

How much do the casters value an extra 5% crit? How much do the melee classes value an extra 3% hit? How much does the MT value 2% boss miss?

I think if you added the extra DPS from the casters and melee to the moonkins DPS, and the 2% miss to their healing then they start to look very attractive.

And lumping them with ferals. How much does the raid value an extra in combat rez? How much does the raid value an extra innervate? How much does the raid value someone able to switch to healing where a particular encounter needs extra healing rather than DPS?

And if they will be your only druid in attendance. How much is Gift of the Wild valued? How much is the ability to hibernate beasts and dragonkins valued?

Personally, I think their 'utility' is somewhat undervalued, but then one has to consider what the raid would be losing by taking a Moonkin as DPS rather than a mage, rogue, warlock, shadow priest or hunter...

 

• Maledict

The only boss we think has *any* nature resistance, barring Hydross's immunity, in the current raiding game is The Big Bad Wolf. And that's a *big* maybe. Other than that, a warlocks curse will have no effect on the number of partial resist you are getting on your spells at all, it just adds 10% more damage.

My main issue with balance druids is that I see absolutely no advantage they have over an elemental / resot specced shaman. Not only does the shaman bring far better buffs to his group, but they can heal instantly without having to drop out of a "form", and they have much better mana regeneration capabilities.

 

Aadar

But would you bring two elemental shamans rather than one elemental shaman and one moonkin? Or would you bring one elemental shaman plus one "insert fav dps class here" instead as you dont value the moonkin dps+buffs/debuffs/utility at all.

 

Tufriast

Ok, I've got heavy interest in this since I am actually one of the very few raiding Moonkins in existence. I keep hearing pretty bad and arrogant stereotypes about how Balance Druids specced to dish out damage get ostracized and mostly shot down fast.

Check out my armory.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...Azgalor&n=Leil

I'm pretty serious when I say I can top the meters regularly. Kazzak, Prince, and other places I've had no issues making damage come out in vast quantities.

1) Mana is not an issue at all if you use proper consumables, and most raiding guilds require consumable use.

2) Aggro is not an issue if you are any kind of good player and have KTM Threat Meter. One stack of invuln pots, and you are fine. Again, aggro pulling is easily remedied via consumables, and smart casting.

Now, why do Moonkin pull so much aggro? In my opinion it is Nature's Grace. If you combo Nature's Grace with Quagmirran's Eye, and pop Heroism/Blood Lust and there you have it - a 2500+ point DoT spell kinda-sorta. Even without those other factors the damage output is devastating. An insane low cast time mixed with high crit chance means aggro generation happens at a fast rate. If you can counterbalance it, you have probably one of the highest end damage casters in the game.

That's the dirty secret.

Here are some screenshots.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...407_234356.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_192642.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_192710.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_192728.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_192733.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_192738.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...607_194936.jpg

Again, I don't run OOM. And yeah I deal significant damage.

If any end-game guild would put their money where their mouth is, gear up a Moonkin, and let bygons be bygons they'd realize things have changed. I'm sure there are "pure" dps classes out there though that are upset.

And yeah, that raid is stacked to have me and the other Moonkin Longevity do lots of damage. In one pic I am put with an Elemental shaman.

Optimum caster DPS even over long fights:
Mage
Mage
Mage
Moonkin
Elemental Combat Shaman

These five will top the charts, hands down. I've seen it, done it, and love it. Gruul, world bosses, Kara, and I'm betting SSC/TK:TE as well. Just got my SSC key two days ago.

Again, I'll leave it to everyone to figure it out.

P.S. Oh yes, and popping out to throw a heal and do a Battle Rez is standard operating procedure. My common macro is "Oh-sh!t-Tranquility" or "Oh-sh!t-Brez" etc. A good Moonkin is usable on a raid. And by the way, most of the mobs you can't CC with sheep, fear, seduce, stun, _insert CC method_ --- you can Cyclone. Check out Durnholde Heroic for some hints on that.

 

alienangel

Sadly I think hunters win that dubious honour in continuous burn fights.

 

Deathwing

Hey there, please remove the chip from your shoulder. If you're going to get angsty about people maligning moonkins, perhaps you should look at the previous incarnations of the balance tree. Not exactly awe inspiring. Guilds are slow to change, it takes something huge for them to accept offspecs. Like druids tanking Maulgar, shadowpriests increasing caster longevity by a huge amount, etc. What wow factor or great utility does a balance druid bring to a raid? While we're on the topic, I noticed you forgot to pick up the improved FF talent(neither did your friend).

While I'm sure balance DPS is fine and competitive, that's not what people are arguing against. Go talk to the rogues about how much their dps guaruntees them a spot on raids. BTW, providing a fluke damage meter and big crit on a 3.5s spell while you're buffed to the gills isn't going to convince anyone.

 

duostrike

Who has the chip?

I would love to see more moonkins around. However, most people including people on this forum apparently like to rip on people without any real reason. After the clearcasting change for elemental shaman they finally are being considered as better dpsers + great utility. Hopefully balance druids will get the same respect some day. Perhaps it will only get there with people like leil beating it through everyone's skulls.

Competitive dps
5% crit aura
Innervate
Battle Rez
Heals
MoTW

All add up to a pretty impressive package.

 

Deathwing

I don't have a problem with moonkins. I have a problem with people telling us we're all wrong and then doing very little to back it up. My first comment(your second quote) had nothing against moonkins. I was merely pointing out that both statements are true because very few people play them(moonkins) or use them(macs).

Again, people are getting balance druid confused with just plain druid. Of all those abilities you listed, only 5% aura is unique to moonkins.

 

• Umph

He does have a point though, even if it's bluntly made. How well buffed were the DPS classes below the Moonkin in the screenshots? I would like to see more Moonkin, I'm surprised more of the other caster classes don't love them for the 5% crit.

 

duostrike

I would love to see a group.
------------------------------
Elemental Shaman
Moonkin
Mage <- me
SPriest
Paladin

That's an extra 8% crit and 3% hit and 101 +damage/healing. With tons of mana to go around and extra longevity for the paladin.

I would be hitting about 40ish% crit on fire spells with my current spec and gear. Devastating would be an understatement. I do think that imp FF should add +hit% for spells as well as for melee/ranged.

However, this is getting a bit OT. I just wanted to see where this thread was going as I too wish for +5% crit lovin.

 

Xelopheris

There is one thing to say about perfect moonkin DPS. It's impossible to do it. Perfect DPS is hitting Wrath, unless you have a Nature's Grace proc, in which case, you hit Starfire. Wrath's DPS exceeds Starfires greatly in their talented 1.5/3.0 cast time state. But when you apply Nature's Grace to the picture, you run into the GCD for wrath. The solution is to use Starfire only when you crit, but unfortunately, that's very hard to do (read: next to impossible). It used to be rather easy when you could make a macro to check for buffs, but now you actually have to visually watch if each spell crits and hit starfire instead.

Also, wrath spam runs you OOM faster, so while doing more DPS, Starfire can do significantly more damage in fights that run your mana pool.

 

Tufriast

Yeah sorry. Chip removed.

1) It's a 3.0 second cast spell, reduced 2.5 seconds with a Nature's Grace proc.
2) DPS doesn't guarantee a raid spot, its the ability to do what you do best - which is fill in the void of a role when things go wrong. That's what a druid is built for, imho. I hope to achieve that.
3) Improved FF is nice, but lowers DPS of *me* by recasting it constantly. The DPS contribution from a Moonkin by themself is better than the 3% to hit. Least from what I see on damage meters. The melee benefit --- but nowhere near as much when the raid is caster stacked like ours is. Our guild gears towards casters.
4) Rogues die fast. Moonkins can heal themselves in a pinch. Each class has merits
5) Change is something people fear, and of course I expect to run into detractors in about 3 more seconds.
6) Being buffed to the gills is what raiding is all about. You come with your A-game, and yeah no dying due to 'aggro'. You drink your pots, and you do your best. Drop yer gold on the raid.

But yeah, many faces 1 player.

 

Deathwing

1. Last I checked, it's a 3.5s spell for scaling purposes, which affects your crit size. Want me to post a screenshot of my 5.5k incinerate with only wizard's oil?

2. You're still avoiding what unique abilities a moonkin offers, besides the established 5% aura. A feral could do as well in dps, and provide OTing to boot. Not to mention LoTP and iLoTP.

3. That's quite selfish to think that "wasting" 1.5s to give your melees +3% hit and improved damagefor 40s, especially if your tank isn't hit capped. I'm sure you know how a bad miss string in the beginning can fuck up a pull.

6. The point about being buffed is that it basically voids any screenshot, we don't know how buffed your friends were.

 

Tufriast

I'll bite b/c you are not a Druid.

1) It's 2.5 second cast spell, and the damage that hits is power. That's really all that matters. When you crit, the cast time goes shorter - as a Balance Druid. I don't need math, or fanciful fact checking to determine 2.5 x 5500 x 4 times in a row = yes, you my friend are at the top of the charts.

2) I'm not avoiding anything. My utility on a raid is huge. *I heal in tight spots.* I don't know what you do not fathom about that. As stated above MoTW is decent. Last I checked again, ranged is the preferred method of DPS, not melee. Why? B/c of that lovely thing called Cleave. And I'm so sure Feral has tons of survivability in Cat Form no don't it? OH WAIT IT DOESN'T. So that leaves tanking, which I've already done to some really not-so-reliable degree. If that non-elite is eating someone, I've been known to pick up the slack and take a few 1200-1400 point hits to the face and survive easily. Why? 12,000 Armor. Again, this is OH SHIT WE EFFED UP utility. This is what Druids are and will be and this will not change. That utility is more than a warlock, mage, rogue, or any other single role DPS brings to the table, and/or combined. I've proven that much on raids.

3) There are no large amounts of rogues, or melee classes on our raids. I spec to suit MY RAID, not yours, not your brothers, and not your mothers. MINE. And a miss of a Hunter shot, Warrior shot, or someone else pulling is THEIR fault. If they fail, we all fail. If they don't have their hit gear on - that's that person and that class's issue. Not a Moonkin one.

4) Last I checked I haven't seen a raid that isn't raid buffed, and with some consumables on. I work with the real world, not with "lets see in this ideal situation with no friction and perhaps we can add some smoke and mirrors with talent tree calculators" type info. I potted. I deal damage. I pot hard, I deal A LOT of damage. Moreso than the Warlocks, Mages, and/or other DPS classes. Simple fact is: THE SPEED of Wrath is far and above higher DPS than almost any other damage spell in the game if you can mitigate the threat properly.

I'm working on getting more screenshots together, and perhaps I can prove this forum wrong, and take your stereotypes out to the pasture.

You don't want to bring a Moonkin to the raid? Fine. Suffer.

My guild keeps getting server-firsts, and people wonder why. We stack our raid. That stack includes me, a shaman, and 3 mages.

What firsts on my server?
Nightbane
Kazzak
Doomwalker
Gruul -- PRE-NERF.

My good friends in Hyperion got a Horde side Magtheridon down (post nerf) -- and guess what? They have a raiding Moonkin.

Change your minds fast. Moonkin do take lots of gear to get massive damage. If anyone is willing to do so, you will see them at the top. If you don't want that kind of damage in your raid, its fine. Be happy with your rogues, mages, locks, and stuff. I'll be saving lives while I watch Mages get one-shotted on trash. I'll pull up a Brez. When a healer gets pounded b/c off-tank goes down, I'll pull the aggro, take two hits, pull it to the tank, pop an invuln pot, slap a tranquility, and throw on my damage staff and get right back at it.

So far, in my experience tell me why I'M BRINGING A SINGLE ROLE class to a raid?

A good Druid is hard to play, a badass one has all roles covered, and keeps up with the solo-roles.

 

Kelyas

Tufriast has inspired me quite a bit.

I've been spec'd 33/0/28 for a while, and farming became an option to me after I found I could do some damage with minor spelldamage.

I've been picking up random pieces of gear since, and after reviewing his armory and noting the ease of most of the gear, it's really "turned me on" in a sense.

My ultimate goal is to max out all my rolls gear-wise, but there's some cases which I'll have to wait a while. But the moonkin gear Tufriast has is mostly easy to get and won't require much ninja'ing from mages

 

Tufriast

A real balance druid wears leather. The gear is gotten through five-mans, and your tier gear is a good supplement. I don't fight with cloth b/c I like being able to laugh at mages when a mob hits them. I just kind of stand there, and punch it in the face with a Wrath. It's fun. You should do it some time.

Heck even in caster, farming is fun. You just run up to things and it dies. 0 interrupts with the right talent point layout.

Get yer tier set. It's pretty damn good. FYI, my aim is to hit about 25-30% Crit, and 1000-1100 spellpower unbuffed. Beware of cracking the 1,000 spellpower line. You got to be smart about spell casting and threat at that point somewhat. I say SOMEWHAT. Not 'zomg threat is bad /freak out' - that's a preemptive strike to threat freaks.

We'll see how all this turns out. Blizzard is not done with Balance. I know this as fact.

 

Myul

How does those two arguments fit together? If you can do your part to help them because they are lacking hit, only wasting 1.5s GCD every 40s (2.25s per minute in average) - why you shouldn't?
It's not a damage dealer's primary object to deal damage. While joining a raid, your priority briefing object should be: to assist the raid in every thinkable way. You don't have to stay on the top of any damage meter to do that. While a mage is decursing, he can't do damage. While a lock is chainfearing, he can't do damage. While a rogue is stun-locking, he can't do (that much) damage.

Some simply math, i think: you crit for 5500 starfire extra damage with your nature's grace buff up and add another inch to your damage line. But a rogue fails 3 hits out of 100, and there are about 3+ in your raidgroup. Your Tank and Offtank boss miss a special attack and 3 hits out of 100, receiving less rage and ending up with less tps. A hunter shouldn't miss, "good" hunter are allways at max hit with regular gear (but it will help at any encounter requiring resistance gear, it's hard to archieve a bunch of resistance on items and +% hit as well for tranquilizing). Add a feral druid, an enhancement shaman and that's should end us up with at least one melee dps group and 2-3 tanks. 7-8 people of your raid get a quite nice boost, and especially your tank will love you for this debuff.
They can drop some gems and wear items with more avoidance or hp, thanks to you - well they could, if your improved fearie fire is up. All tanks i can imagine lacked %hit in vanilla and still does, they reach really nice healthpoints, armor reduction and avoidance, but a row of misses may lead you to a serious point. You claim you are on top of dps meter so i think i can guess, you are 2nd or 3rd on ktm as well (under regular circumstances you should). Another big crit instead of casting your raid assistant spells and you or another overeagerly damage dealer will be dead then immediatley. Is that such a good deal? And i can't imagine you raid have with that little numbers of melee dps, that the raid won't benefit more from your fearie fire than from your (un)crit starfire.

Insect swarm is a different point, it's only assist your tank and if your raidheal is noe issue (maybe you got 5-6 palas with some shadowpriests, and they won't never ever stop tossing huge heals on the maintank), you may not use it at all. But if your tank dies during any encounter by a annoying hit/crushing row, then please just think of the option, that your "wasted" global cooldown could have helped the raid a little bit more then some extra dps

 

Tufriast

You putting it that way makes me kind of want to see how it works.

 

Solstice

I'd be interested to hear how you dont run into mana issues on encounters longer than 3 minutes such as Gruul and Magth. I'd never specced balance at all until recently but went through the motions of collecting a full leather blue\epic moonkin set from heroics and rep, and getting it fully enchanted etc. Then during our efforts to beat pre nerfed Gruul I decided to give it a shot as we had enough healing and were trying to minimise melee dps.

Using full consumables and super mana pots of course, I found that my dps was reasonable compared to other casters. I was about 20% short of mages for the first 2-3minutes, part of which I put down to my relatively lower quility of gear. The problem I had was mana efficiency. I was oom in less than 3 minutes even with the most efficient cycle, whereas mages still had a decent amount of mana and evocation up.

Perhaps my dps cycle was wrong but I'm having a hard time believing that a moonkin could keep up with caster dps over any sustained period given the relative lack of dpm. Thats not to say that the added utility one brings to the raid wouldnt be worthwhile of course.

 

Zynth

The question is, did the rest of the raid pop flasks for a 1 min kill featured in your screen shot.

This seems to contradict your screen shots, which shows 6 rogues, 5 hunters 2 warriors, and what ever else the other druids are spec'd. So out of 26 people, at least 13 are are using physical attacks. Half the raid. Further more, those physical groups don't have shaman which dramatically increase their DPS via bloodlust/heroism over casters due to the fact the melee attacks aren't limited by GCD like wrath would be, on top of NG procs. Comparing DPS of a person with a shaman vs those w/o is apples to oranges.

On a closing note, the progression of your guild and the acclaim of your server firsts is totally relative to the skill lvl and attitude on your server.

 

Deathwing