doogless

curses (elements, shadows, recklessness) greatly increase raid DPS. you could give a similar increase if you took imp FF.

 

◊ Shalas

Not only are you the only person to have mentioned KT, but you missed the point entirly. Saying you got a server first kill only indicates that you're better than the rest of your server which might be relevant if this were your realm forums, but this isn't. Killing Gruul pre-nerf is impressive, and puts your guild into the top 10% or so, but there's a lot of people here who killed Gruul before you without using Moonkin. That screenshot is also completly meaningless. What is some green bars supposed to show?

Compared to Battle Rez and Innervate for moonkin... and you said you use Innervate on yourself. There's a lot of fights in TBC that are either impossible or much harder without a warlock. There aren't any where a mage with a battlerez would significantly simplify things, and about the only situation I can think of that would is old Broodlord. CoS alone is occasionally more damage than some players do when we have shadow-heavy raids -- but of course you've decided not to use the moonkin version of that.

The first step would be to click on the SW_Stats settings button and make it actually display some numbers. The next step would be to either include the fight length or switch SW_Stats to showing effective DPS, not damage done -- you could be at the top of damage done doing 200 dps if everyone else was doing 150.

Can't summon in Netherstorm :P

 

Deathwing

What happened to you topping damage meters? You were fourth in both screenshots, and in the first one, that rogue trounced everyone.

Banish, fear, soulstones, healthstones, blood pact, CoS/CoE/CoR, AE without a cooldown, and agro dump. Yeah, that's a poor list of utility. Although, I will be the first to admit blood pact isn't that great, especially since I have DS myself. And no, I don't run out of mana, ever. Did you forget about lifetap? The amount of sustained damage a warlock can do is well worth a renew or rejuvination once in a while.

You still seem to be confusing utility any druid can provide with the utility moonkin can provide. Let me make it simple for you. There's a free raid spot open, doesn't matter who would take it. Who would you take, a feral druid, a balance druid, or a healing druid. And leave dps out of it, because you might as well take another one of those rogues that beat you so badly.

As for Dr. Boom, he's an easy sustained dps test. Any class with 35+ yard attacks can dps him without getting hit by the bombs, and he has enough HP to sustain 10+ minutes from anyone. The point is to DPS him until you're OOM, record the fight with some dps mod and fraps.

 

spronk

I'll jump to Tufriast's defense, we raid with a boomkin (hes very casual though and attends maybe 20% of raids) who does decent damage. he doesn't pot/flask up so usually fights go with him near top at start of bosses and near bottom by end. for trash he does great, and certain fights are nice with boomkins (maulgar tank for example). interestingly, we found it better for him to go catform on aran since I put on curse of reck for warrs/rogues/hunters, and he does nearly 2x as much damage as a cat than as boomkin on that one fight, due to aran's low armor.

Tufriast has found a guild that supports him, gives him the drops he needs, and has a class balance that works out well for boomkins. As long as they continue happily I don't see a problem.

Tufriast, I think to objectively state your case you need damage meters running (swstats or recap), set your combat log to 100-200 yards so you don't have to sync with anyone else, and reset the meters before a boss fight (or dr boom or whatever). Threat Meter is not useful at all for tracking damage. Dr Boom is a good test of how long you can sustain a certain DPS level before going OOM. Gruul and SSC are good dmg meter stats of how you compare to other DPS classes, in both your guild and other guilds - for example, if you are #1 but all your rogues, mages, warlocks, spriests are < 200k (or 500dps) on Gruul then it really just means the rest of your guild isn't very good, since many of the hardcore raiding guilds achieve 300-400k and 800-1100dps per person on Gruul.

A typical meter is something like this:



You can also use this tool: http://www.lossendil.fr/serendipity/...userguide.html

to create beautiful web-based recaps of fight, but its a bit more complicated to use.

I think as you get further in SSC you will find it increasingly difficult to keep up, and the raid may have healing issues. Patch 2.1.0 will also change things with cleave changes as well as a number of other small tweaks Blizzard is making to make melee more viable. Lastly, Blizzard hasn't really supported off-specs very well in WoW 1.0 nor in TBC, mostly wrt to itemization at the high end. If they don't have many good drops for boomkins in SSC/TK/Hyjal, obviously thats an issue.

 

Tufriast

True. Might do it.

Ok, now moving on, I can move Dr. Boom about 10% in about 1:35 seconds on my first trial, and 1:40 on my second trial. This is unbuffed just slapping an Innervate. My and my friend Mokumoku (horde) were running some tests.

Bottom line he came to about 110-122.9 mana per 1 second totally. 3200-3670 mana is spent every 30 seconds using nothing but Wrath. My mana pool is 11987 is my actual mana pool with Innervate.

I can go about 1:40 seconds on the Dr. Boom fella, and he moves 10% guaranteed. Dunno if that is good, bad, or ugly but it is the truth. I'm gonna get some damage meters posted next on him, and I'm also gonna try and do the Mac Equivalent of FRAPS or whatnot.

I gotta move into the damage next...my Wrath's against him for 1048ish on average, and 2050-2100 point crits. My crit percent is about 23.76% in Moonkin and my Wrath says it crits 26-27% of the time on him it seems. 132,000~ damage, is what I churned out in 150 seconds. 1108.675 DPS is what my bud Mokumoku calculated. Gonna get a DM...see what happens next.

This is unbuffed, not even motw on.

 

• Playered

I dont know how people can compare Imp FF to something useful?
3% hit for hunters - ok, but any compitent hunter is going to be at the hit cap or within 1% of it.
3% hit for rogues - 24% is max, and fair enough almost no rogue is going to have that much on their gear, but they will atleast have over 15% and after that point things start to diminish (correct me if im wrong now)

3% hit for feral druids, or a 2h MS warrior is almost the same as with hunters, albeit probably more useful.
3% hit for dw shamans who have 9% from talents alone, similar to rogues.
3% hit for dw fury warriors is probably the biggest gain.

for fun:
3% hit for retadins, and regenerating moonkin druids is probably decent too

The one point which I feel is valid about it, is 3% hit for a tank is something potentially worth it, far more than with any DPSer.

People are generally near the top of their cap or at it and going beyond that does nothing for DPS, whereas Curse of <x> atleast provides a static %damage bonus.

The only way you can really contest its worth is if you have alot of the minority physical DPSers (the last 3) or you have everyone else design their gear sacrificing +hit in favor of AP/crit or stats instead as they will get 3% from you always to replace it.

 

◊ thejdawg

I am not a raid leader, but I am a tank. If there was a Moonkin in my raid, and he did not have Imp FF/did not think it was worthwhile to put it up, I would remove him from the raid.

3% hit for a tank is such an ungodly type of valuable that there are not the words in the English language to correctly describe it, especially for a druid.

Consider it this way. 3% hit means more threat for the tank, which means the aggro issues that are surely plaguing you are not as big of an issue, in addition to increasing all the physical DPS damage. If you don't think that's worth a global cooldown, then I think you should try taking a look through more than just your own eyes.

 

• Playered

For DPS its close to garbage in comparison to other benefical debuffs which I'll stick to with my unyielding breath, heck give it a 1/2/3% physical damage done bonus and then its getting there.
Im saying this as a former DPSer and as someone who discusses gear and stat choices with other classes still, not as a Moonkin of which I dont even enjoy playing (resto-pew).

Around the tanking issue, I raised it as the only valid choice for having the ability, I dont recall slamming it and saying its worthless or something.

 

◊ thejdawg

Sorry, I quoted you, but didn't mean it only to you. My statement was to any Moonkin who thought that it wasn't worth the talent points/not worth the GCD.

 

• Playered

Honestly I think most people dont even consider the issue of how it effects the tank, and soley look at it from the DPS point of view.

I know when I was Moonkin none of the tanks asked me if I had it or if I could get it, and I never thought about it for them either.

 

Tufriast

Yeah I gotta think of it from a bunch of angles. I'm still wishy-washy on this talent, it isn't bad, but it isn't great. I'd be so much more tempted to take it if it were further up the tree, cost less points, etc. etc. Right now I got to pick between that and Celestial Focus. Focus is really, really, really helpful when I got someone in my face. It's a coin toss.../boggle. Focus helps with farming..etc. Stun is nice, but procs rarely I feel.

I wouldn't boot someone out of a raid for not taking it though, it helps, but I don't think to the magnitude of worth kicking someone.

 

• Playered

Indeed, moving it to the 3rd tier (please destroy brambles) would actually make it viable as you need 3 filler points anyway and this way they become viable in a raiding spec regardless of its bloated cost.

 

Dranak

132k damage in 150 seconds is 880 DPS, not 1100. For 2.5 minutes, after which you're OOM and useless (and if I read your post correctly, you also blew Innervate on yourself, which pokes a large hole in your claims of bringing raid utility).

If you want to be taken seriously, get SW_Stats (or one of the other decent damage meters), and take screenshots of you going out w/o pots or flasks and paying a visit to Dr. Boom, and make sure your SS include both damage done, and fight duration, as well as stating whether or not you wasted innervate on yourself.

Edit: Actually, 1:40 + 1:35 would be 195 seconds. So using the damage number you gave (132K), that'd be only 680 DPS.

 

Boevis

At this point I think you're just attacking a player that has quite a bit of room for improvement when it comes to theorycrafting and a rather large ego based on server progression and short-fight meters.

We all know Moonkin has some obvious raid utility, more than taking a 3rd Warlock/Mage most of the time (except when obviously required). iFF, IS, and the Aura to a caster group (Moonkin, Shadow Priest, Elem Shaman, Mage, Mage) is certainly enough to justify a good Moonkin in a raid group. However, Moonkin requires Salv, so in many Horde guilds where you only have 2 paladins this means losing Kings (15dmg 9 mp5 2% crit) or Wisdom (49 mp5) And has no real viable CC in raiding.

 

• Cluey

I am in the process of catching up on stuff after a few days break from the forum and this thread interests me as its the one part of the druid I haven't played with.

How did your testing go?

 

Zephro

Hehe, how do I get to your planet? Killing Gruul pre-nerf probably puts you in the top 2% of all guilds.

Anyway, something I haven't seen discussed is Judgement of Wisdom and its interaction with Moonkins. Wrath scales better than Starfire, so there exists a level of +damage where Wrath is both better dps and better dpm. JoW moves this much much closer, because it's a flat 50% chance to proc, meaning it procs twice as often with Wrath spam as with Starfire spam. It helps hugely. With my gear loadout (+698 damage, 20% crit) I'm pretty sure JoW'd Wrath lets me last longer than Starfire spam.

 

Tufriast

There were two trials, and the dps did crack 1100+.

I'll state it again:


"Ok, now moving on, I can move Dr. Boom about 10% in about 1:35 seconds on my first trial, and 1:40 on my second trial."

Each trial moves him 10%. I have SW Stats, and I proved much more to myself rather than to you that I can hold my own on the meters easily.

Anyway, I run a Mac and I've been looking into some equivalent FRAPS application. I've been busy with work, so I'll get a movie going sometime soon.

 

Tufriast

Yeah Wrath spam is 110% the way to go, and yes including Innervate in the rotation helps. You can avoid popping innervate on yourself totally with two items:

1) Flask of Might Restoration. 70 MP/5.
2) Alchemist's Stone. ~51 MP/5 using Fel Mana Potion.

I love using both on longer boss fights we haven't downed yet. Post-nerf Gruul I don't go OOM on now. Pre-nerf I'd Flask. Post, naw he goes down so fast.

 

Deathwing

According to WoWHead, Dr. Boom has 650,000 HP.

65000/95s = 684 DPS.
65000/100s = 650 DPS.

Even more so, if those two statements are wrong, and only your last one is true:

132000/150s = 880 DPS.

Not sure why you needed a buddy to do simple math for you. So, which one is it, 650, 880, or the wildly outrageous 1100+? If you really did do 1100 DPS, 10% to Dr. Boom would have only taken 59s.

Do you usually use Innervate on yourself?

 

◊ Shalas

Probably under 1%, if you count the huge number of guilds that have 2-3 bosses down in Karazhan. Regardless of the actual number, the point is that the readership of this board is so disproportionatly skewed towards the top end compared to the WoW populace as a whole that an achievment that's impressive on an absolute scale isn't nessesarily something that makes sense to brag about here.

 

Boevis

My god, I hate to do this. But Screenshots or it didn't happen. Looking at your gear over armory, I'm willing to bet that you can't break 900 DPS unbuffed with just wrath.

I'm personally well aware of what a well geared moonkin can do, but every time you post that you have SWStats yet refuse to even post a imageshack, photobucket, or hell an Angelfire link to a screenshot, part of me dies. Is it really that hard? We want to see a screenshot. Amuse us by posting anything showing you above 900 DPS with just wrath and most of us are going to shut up. Continue to post without proof and you'll just get ignored and called a liar.