Currently, I use Mark of Tyranny and Alchemist's Stone. After a few more runs of Black Morass, I'll be working Timelapse Shard into the mix. So it'll be some combination of those three, depending on whether I want more armor+dodge vs stamina on a given fight.
It seems like most of the posts here focus on warrior tanking trinkets, in which case hitting uncrushable levels is trivial with Shield Block; does anyone have input on paladin tanking trinkets? If, as I'd heard, there's a base 5% miss chance for mobs in addition to all tooltip defense stats on the character sheet, then I'm sitting at 66.42% crushing mitigation in this gear, meaning I'm crushing-immune with Holy Shield up (Heroic Libram) and nearly so while Redoubt is up, having just farmed up the Figurine of the Colossus. I also have a Regal Protectorate and Adamantite Figurine, so my question is: is the Figurine the strongest choice for MTing purposes, given all this info and gear? Or would it, say, benefit me more to enchant shield with +15 block rating, get some more block rating elsewhere (Jade-Skull Brestplate perhaps) and switch to Argussian Compass or Adamantine Figurine?
(Hell, would it maybe be more advantageous to swap out the Moroes watch for one of these, given the nature of paladin tanking? Unless I misunderstand, which I very well might, the +32 defense rating from the Figurine is 0.61% to parry, dodge, block, and miss, for a total 2.47% crush mitigation, barring the click effect. I guess the Moroes watch use effect provides sufficient benefit to eclipse the marginal gains from defense on Adamantine?)
Hrm. I use LGG and Adamantite Figurine, with Dabiri/Colossus in bank somewhere. I have enough badges to buy the auto blocker, but it seems like a waste, and I'd rather keep running Underbog to pick up the Compass.
What actually happened with trinket itemization? Onyxia Blood, LGG and Styleens were all quite nicely done, then it seems like everything took a step back in BC :-|
From what I can tell, Blizzard is either purposely limiting some of the more powerful effects by including overall trivial "use" effects on them, or doesn't want to create items that makes everyone go "this is the best, hands down, no comparison". I think it was an idea from this forum actually, people got sick of having to go back and farm BRD, DM, ZG, BWL for the best trinkets in the game and Blizzard thought it was a bit lame to just "make a better HoJ"
I think trinkets are supposed to be different than all your other slots. They are supposed to be situational. They are supposed to be cool/fun. The early trinket itemization (leveling to 60) certainly followed this rule. I had things like nifty stopwatch (run speed), luffa (bleed effect removal), mark of the chosen (chance on being hit to increase stats), and carrot on a stick.
At some point, we start seeing normal stats on trinkets... as if they were just another armor slot... things like vigilant charm, counter attack loadstone, mindtap talisman, and DM class trinkets (all items from dire maul). Raid drops were a mix of this "nifty" itemization with pure stats. Neltharion's Tear, Styleen's Impeding Scarab, and Rejuvenating Gem are examples of static itemization. I'm not sure how the developers handle their item budget, but I can imagine that it would be much harder to correctly balance trinkets which have strange use effect, random procs, etc. There is also the issue of debugging and quality control -- these items may not work as intended (example, some zoning bug with badge of the swarmguard?). I believe that these static trinkets were a solution to getting content out the door quickly with little chance for bugs.
Now, with the expansion, they're trying to do things right again. Almost every trinket has a use effect or proc on it.
I think tanks and healers find this particularly annoying because we want steadiness. We don't want burst anything (there are enrages of course where use effects would be worthwhile).
What we'd really like would be a trinket with either static armor and static health, I think. It's sort of sad that we're taking trinkets like the compass and engineering trinkets just for the static value when some designer made them with a really cool use effect.
I'm surprised there aren't any jewelcrafter tanks commenting in this thread. I use Moroes' watch and Dawnstone Crab. Those two stack and give me a clickable Evasion every 2 minutes.
Not a JC here but I'd replace my Figurine with a Dawnstone Crab in a heartbeat. I'd definitely replace the Crab with Scarab of Displacement before the Moroes Watch though. Those clicky evasion buffs are real nice for stuff like Gruul after Shatters or positioning Magtheridon, or even just giving your healers some regen time!
Meant to just exaggerate spirit mana regen time -_-. They get to interrupt almost all their heals when that friggin stopwatch is up. Ironically most of the real Innervates go to the DPS nowadays...
As a feral Moroes pocketwatch is one of very few clickies I have to lighten the load on my healers, I won't be repping it anytime ever unless we get a better version of the same. I use the adamantite figurine right now but I would like to rep it with the compass sometime soon, when I can make uncrittable without the figue.
Honestly, you need 0 Block% to be immune to crushing blows with Shield Block up. It has always been that way. The combat table needs to be full, which is 25% of -any combination- of Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block. As that number is totally trivial to reach, you don't actually need Block% for any particular reason at all. Hence why it is probably the weakest tanking stat overall.
Given that, I have always thought Styleen's was quite overrated.
Except you can and will still get crushed if you do not have shield block active which happens either by fast attack speeds or GCD raping. So that being said block % is in fact very valuable not to mention that any healer would prefer to heal a steady flow of damage as opposed to burst damage which is what high dodge / parry puts you at risk of.
Except you can and will still get crushed if you do not have shield block active which happens either by fast attack speeds or GCD raping. So that being said block % is in fact very valuable not to mention that any healer would prefer to heal a steady flow of damage as opposed to burst damage which is what high dodge / parry puts you at risk of.
Block % may be a bit better against fast hitting mobs than usual, but avoidance will help keep your Shield Block up longer, making you less vulnerable to crushes.
Very few bosses dual wield though, which still makes it a weak stat for MTing.
Block % may be a bit better against fast hitting mobs than usual, but avoidance will help keep your Shield Block up longer, making you less vulnerable to crushes.
Very few bosses dual wield though, which still makes it a weak stat for MTing.
I am not going to deny that. The point I was trying to make was that you should build a healthy balance of Block Dodge Parry and not focus on just one.
I'm all for balancing things like stamina, AC, block value, avoidance etc.
But in this case I think one is clearly better than the other because of the item budget: dodge >>> parry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> block%.
I'm all for balancing things like stamina, AC, block value, avoidance etc.
But in this case I think one is clearly better than the other because of the item budget: dodge >>> parry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> block%.
But your basing this off of gear that is known to be much lower ilvl and will be updated whenever patch 2.1.omghurryup comes out. Not saying your wrong just that things will change when that happens and could alter some gear selections made.
Except you can and will still get crushed if you do not have shield block active which happens either by fast attack speeds or GCD raping. So that being said block % is in fact very valuable not to mention that any healer would prefer to heal a steady flow of damage as opposed to burst damage which is what high dodge / parry puts you at risk of.
Honestly, though, I don't see how Block% particularly helps with any of the issues you mentioned. Do you have a concrete example of how Block% is particularly valuable point-for-point in the mod budget vs. Stamina, Armor, or Dodge/Parry%? I cannot think of one and I have tried pretty hard to come up with a rationale for this stat being on many set items in the past!
Honestly, though, I don't see how Block% particularly helps with any of the issues you mentioned. Do you have a concrete example of how Block% is particularly valuable point-for-point in the mod budget vs. Stamina, Armor, or Dodge/Parry%? I cannot think of one and I have tried pretty hard to come up with a rationale for this stat being on many set items in the past!
Well how about High King Maulgar?
Heck it just happened to me tonight to get crushed for 9k then hit by 6k more the next second and wipe with a high STA setup (like 14 unbuffed and only about 20-21% block); but when I swtiched to 27% block + dabiri (and a bit more dodge/parry as well) I wasn't crushed anymore. And yes I made sure shield block was up each time, I was using stoneshield potions (plus the Adamantite figurine in the first setup).
At Gruul on the other hand, I stack STA and flask (while having 2 different health stones, nightbane seeds, last stand etc ready to use on a "o crap" macro + armor pots).
Styleens is on me all the time, don't use LGG in raids anymore, waiting for the other trinkets to drop/buy...
I'm sorry to sound rude, but how many times must this be repeated: base Block% does NOT reduce your chance of getting a crushing blow. Period. All Block% does is increase your chance to absorb [Block Value] damage randomly when Shield Block is not active. That's it.
In fact, as I stated in another post, as Dodge/Parry/Miss help your Shield Block uptime they actually do indirectly reduce your chance of recieving a crushing blow. Block% absolutely does not.
You are immune to crushing blows when the Shield Block skill is active (e.g. the buff is in your buff list) and no other time. "Normal" Blocks have nothing to do with avoidance of crushing blows whatsoever, and only come as a result of the mechanic of filling up the combat table due to the huge amount Shield Block adds.
However, to give an example... say you have 25% combined Dodge/Parry/Miss--when you use Shield Block, you will have a 25% chance to avoid, and a 75% chance to block. This means you have a 75% chance to consume the Shield Block charge. When the Shield Block charge(s) go away, you are then vulnurable to crushing blows until you next activate it.
If you have a combined 50% Dodge/Parry/Miss, you only have a 50% chance to block with Shield Block active, thus extending the average duration of Shield Block and thus extending your window of protection against crushing blows.
To the contrary, base Block% does absolutely nothing with Shield Block active, as it is easily pushed off the table. As your goal is to keep Shield Block uptime as high as possible in general your indirect goal becomes to make your base Block% as useless as possible. How is that a good investment of mod points?
Still useing Styleens and Pocket Watch with it, ill stick to 25% block as i know for a fact, if i use less, i get crushed sometimes in that 5%, if it makes me happyer thinking that, im ok with that :P still have 23% dodge 17% parry, 13.3k HP unbuffed and 511 defence even with it. Maybe some heroic Underbogs are inorder..
Oh and "I'm sorry to sound rude, but how many times must this be repeated: base Block% does NOT reduce your chance of getting a crushing blow. Period. All Block% does is increase your chance to absorb [Block Value] damage randomly when Shield Block is not active. That's it." Not true, a blocked hit can never be a chrushing, so it DOES reduce the chance of a chrushing blow.
I'm using Styleen's and Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker, and on certain cituations Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch. I just see block value as a way to go, on bossfights shield block is up practically always, and every block shaves off slightly over 500 damage from every hit with my current gear. Over time, that's quite a big amount of damage avoided, not even mentioning that it increases the damage of my shield slam, resulting in more threat generated.
Oh and "I'm sorry to sound rude, but how many times must this be repeated: base Block% does NOT reduce your chance of getting a crushing blow. Period. All Block% does is increase your chance to absorb [Block Value] damage randomly when Shield Block is not active. That's it." Not true, a blocked hit can never be a chrushing, so it DOES reduce the chance of a chrushing blow.
Okay, and I realize this is a bit late in the hour, but allow me to explain the quoted within the above quote statement.
Because all boss 'tothit' rolls are done on a 1roll system (as far as we know), level 73s have a 15% chance to crush -per swing-.
Therefore, when they attempt to hit you it will be miss (~10%), parry, dodge, block, crush, crit (0% unless something is very, very wrong), hit.
The thing is unless Miss + dodge + parry + block > 85%, you STLL will be crushed 15% of the time SB is not up. Getting above 85% of those is a bit unreasonable, so assuming somewhat more normal values lemme fill in the table:
10% miss, 20% dodge, 15% parry, 25% block, 15% Crush, 15% hit
Adding 2% to block will only change it to:
10% miss, 20% dodge, 15% parry, 27% block, 15% crush, 13% hit.
So as a rule in any case where avoidance/miss don't total 85% adding block will not, in fact, change the amount of crushes incoming to you.
That said, I'm honestly curious if you could make up an avoidance suit so block-heavy that extra block -does- push crushes further. Block is absurdly cheap as an item budget, and I think it's within the realm of reason to fill out the table that way (you'd be by default crit immune yes?).
Might be completely nutbar and probably entirely idiotic, but could make for some very odd sets of avoidance patterns. In any case, highly OT for the thread.
Not sure if you could ever reach a full combat table without Shield Block up, but it would be an interesting excersize. On the other hand, if it happened I'm almost positive Blizzard would nerf it immediately.
Tankz, as Oggie has further explained... it is the Shield Block -skill- that keeps you from being crushed. The statement of "a block can never be a crush" is just as accurate as saying "a dodge can never be a crush" or "a miss can never be a crush." While technically true, it misses the point.
The point is, if you want to avoid the -chance- of being crushed, you must push crushes off the table. The Shield Block skill is what does this via indirect means, due to the massive amount of its addition to the combat table (+75%) and really has nothing to do with one's base Block% stat.
I do believe this is one of those myths that will perpetuate until the end of time...as I think I've been trying to explain it for roughly the last 2 years solid and still see so many misconceptions about it on a regular basis.
Still useing Styleens and Pocket Watch with it, ill stick to 25% block as i know for a fact, if i use less, i get crushed sometimes in that 5%, if it makes me happyer thinking that, im ok with that :P still have 23% dodge 17% parry, 13.3k HP unbuffed and 511 defence even with it. Maybe some heroic Underbogs are inorder..
Oh and "I'm sorry to sound rude, but how many times must this be repeated: base Block% does NOT reduce your chance of getting a crushing blow. Period. All Block% does is increase your chance to absorb [Block Value] damage randomly when Shield Block is not active. That's it." Not true, a blocked hit can never be a chrushing, so it DOES reduce the chance of a chrushing blow.
I agree Tankz and IDK where Jayde gets his facts...I even gave an example, in line to what you are saying; that when I used 20-21% block I got crushed by Maulgar last night, but when I switched to 27% block it didn't happen anymore. So yeah, I'll stick with 25% block in those kind of fights and try to stack up dodge/parry as well....Dunno may even start wearing some T3 again for that :P
There was a test in another thread on this board that clearly proved it. Lvl 60 warrior fighting the lvl 70 (slow swinging) guys at Karazhan with less than 20% base block. No crushes with SB up. I have done a similar test myself, no crushes, ever. What you see on raids is simply the result of lag, not facing the mob, something like that.
There is another pretty easy way to test your 2 roll theory: go out with ~50% avoidance/~25% base block and get beat up by some mob. According to your theory, you will only block 25% of the hits, so that means 12,5% of all swings will be blocks. This should get some clear results.
04/01/07, 8:38 AM
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