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Old 04/28/07, 5:03 PM   3 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #26 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Oren View Post
Uh, 5
What's 100%/5 and what's 100%/20?
 
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Old 04/28/07, 5:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Lanthon View Post
9800 mana returned per group member for one Magtheridon encounter...I'd be interested in hearing how much mana a shadow priest could return during that fight. As a shadow priest, my group doesn't have mana issues often, making me wonder if Spellsurge is worth it in that case. I do wholeheartedly agree though that you can get two weapons (one of which has spellsurge) and just use them appropriately.
How many people in your group had it? There's no way one person could restore that much mana with it. It has a 30 second cooldown so it would have had to proc 98 times which would put the length of that Magtheridon kill at 49 minutes with one proc every 30 seconds.
 
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Old 04/28/07, 5:51 PM   #28 (permalink)
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by graenger View Post
What's 100%/5 and what's 100%/20?
He said 20, VT is 5% return.
 
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Old 04/28/07, 6:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
Bald Bull
 
dukes's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Oren View Post
He said 20, VT is 5% return.
He said

divide your damage done by 20
So... 100% divided by 20 = 5%. Right?
 
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Old 04/30/07, 6:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
Originally Posted by Moos3d View Post
How many people in your group had it? There's no way one person could restore that much mana with it. It has a 30 second cooldown so it would have had to proc 98 times which would put the length of that Magtheridon kill at 49 minutes with one proc every 30 seconds.
*selfquote*

Originally Posted by felixjendrusch View Post
Today we were able to build our first group consisting of 5 healers with Spellsurge. I've counted all our Spellsurge procs during the Magtheridon encounter with an addon.

Spellsurge: You have gained 9800 Mana by Spellsurge (98 procs) in 17 minutes and 58 seconds.
 
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Old 05/01/07, 1:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Kargath
Sorry to bump an old thread, but does anyone have concrete data on Spellsurge's proc rate on the PTR? I'd recopy over with the materials and test it myself if I could only find an Enchanter with the recipe.
 
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Old 05/02/07, 8:52 PM   #32 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Illidan
I finally jumped on the PTR's and did some testing myself.

I used proctracker to track time inbetween procs. It's been confirmed (to my knowledge) that currently on live the spell has a 15% proc rate and a 30 second cooldown.

On PTR it seems that cooldown has been increased to 50 seconds.

Tested spamming rank 1 renew on myself, the smallest time between procs was slightly over 50 seconds (like 50.5 secs or something). That was after 15 minutes of spamming.
Everytime it proc'd by 60 seconds.

I don't have data to support the proc rate, but it appears to be consistent once the cooldown is up.
 
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Old 05/02/07, 11:46 PM   #33 (permalink)
King Hippo
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackrock
20sec increase on the hidden CD that sux, 81 +heal it starting to look better again.

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Old 05/03/07, 6:35 AM   #34 (permalink)
Moe
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Runetotem
What do you think the efficiency of this enchant would be for dual wielding hunters with an enchant on both weapons?
Would that increase the number of procs (kinda like Crusader on two weapons)?
Would it be worth it for hunters over offensive enchants?

Dual Mongoose probably beats this I think ...

Last edited by Moe : 05/03/07 at 6:43 AM.

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Old 05/03/07, 6:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
Piston Honda
 
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Undead Mage
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Are shots considered as spells?
 
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Old 05/03/07, 6:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
Moe
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Runetotem
Originally Posted by archz0r View Post
Are shots considered as spells?
Well they are considered as magic at least ... so I would say they are spells too. Also Steady Shot is "1,5 sec cast" in the tooltip, same for Arcane (Instant cast).

Last edited by Moe : 05/03/07 at 6:53 AM.

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Old 05/03/07, 8:05 AM   #37 (permalink)
Got 99 problems, but Windfury Totem aint one
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Al'Akir (EU)
See if you can pull the materials over to the PTR and test it, I am heavilly considering getting this enchant once I get a weapon worthy of dropping the mats on it, I currently play an elemental shaman so it is either this or the +Damage. The change in the proc rate is does seem to lessen the chances of me using this over +Damage.

It is in tune with the patches intentions of reducing longetivity in certain classes though.
 
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Old 05/03/07, 10:45 AM   #38 (permalink)
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Korgath
Originally Posted by Moe View Post
What do you think the efficiency of this enchant would be for dual wielding hunters with an enchant on both weapons?
Would that increase the number of procs (kinda like Crusader on two weapons)?
Would it be worth it for hunters over offensive enchants?

Dual Mongoose probably beats this I think ...

Considering mongoose doesn't proc off melee attacks I doubt it.

Someone in another thread did some quick testing and was getting and got it to proc off kill command, fd, and switching aspects.

Just a troll with a bow 'n too much crit
 
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Old 05/03/07, 4:32 PM   #39 (permalink)
Situation: Crimson Mongoose
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by rujeme View Post
I finally jumped on the PTR's and did some testing myself.

I used proctracker to track time inbetween procs. It's been confirmed (to my knowledge) that currently on live the spell has a 15% proc rate and a 30 second cooldown.

On PTR it seems that cooldown has been increased to 50 seconds.

Tested spamming rank 1 renew on myself, the smallest time between procs was slightly over 50 seconds (like 50.5 secs or something). That was after 15 minutes of spamming.
Everytime it proc'd by 60 seconds.

I don't have data to support the proc rate, but it appears to be consistent once the cooldown is up.
So going from approx 2 ppm @ 16.67 mp5 per enchant per person to 1 every 50 seconds (~6 procs in 5 minutes) @ 10 mp5

Still preferable in healer groups, but if you "value" mp5 at less than 8.1 +heal, the healing enchant will be better on a personal basis.

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Old 05/04/07, 5:35 AM   #40 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by smakback View Post
At this point in BC raiding tanks are not dying because healers are running oom. Between chugging mana pots, major mageblood, and resto flasks I find myself hard sometimes hard pressed to spend my mana.

Perhaps when our gear gets better and adding 70 mp5 from a flask won't make such a huge difference in our mana pools will spellsurge be better. But for the time being I believe 81 healing has the advantage. The only exception I forsee are paladins who can spam their heals, but with the amount of raiding shadowpriests most guilds end up tossing a couple pallies with one giving them a huge mana pool.
Flasks are going to be nerfed in 2.1 which is a big hit for everyone not just alchemist, and also how many elixirs can be on a tank at any one time is also being changed. So therefore, I would have to assume more healers will be doing more healing and will want the mp5 over the increased healing..
 
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Old 05/07/07, 8:17 PM   #41 (permalink)
King Hippo
 
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Gnome Warrior
 
Lightninghoof
I'm trying simple math here comparing having full party with spellsurge to 30 int on the same party. Even assuming it'd proc every 50 seconds on the dot for everyone, it's working out that it'll be 37.5 minutes before spellsurge edges ahead (basically 50 mp5 vs 150 int = 22500 mana), am I looking at it wrong? Because it looks real weak.

e: nevermind, clearly I'm awesome at math. More like 2250 mana meaning 7.5 minutes.
 
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Old 05/07/07, 10:47 PM   #42 (permalink)
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Jubei'Thos
Originally Posted by levk View Post
I'm trying simple math here comparing having full party with spellsurge to 30 int on the same party. Even assuming it'd proc every 50 seconds on the dot for everyone, it's working out that it'll be 37.5 minutes before spellsurge edges ahead (basically 50 mp5 vs 150 int = 22500 mana), am I looking at it wrong? Because it looks real weak.

e: nevermind, clearly I'm awesome at math. More like 2250 mana meaning 7.5 minutes.
Your math is indeed awesome.

50mp5 vs 150 Int.

2250 mana vs 10mp1

2250/10 = 225 Seconds for mp5 to equalise

3 minutes and 15 seconds. i.e. every fight in TBC
 
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Old 05/16/07, 11:36 AM   #43 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Neptulon (EU)
As far as I understand it (and I may well not understand it) there is a 50 minute CD on the proc.

This means that on the PTR Spellsurge is NOT procing every 50 seconds unless you are luckier than god.

This means that Spellsurge is NOT equivilent to 10/5 for all in the party but is in fact equivilent to a smaller number.

My question is this: How do you do the math to work out the AVERAGE number of casts before you get a procs @ 15% chance?

Once I know that then I can fill in a few variables (How often am I casting in fight X) and then I can work out my mana/5 equivilency.
 
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Old 05/16/07, 11:55 AM   #44 (permalink)
These are not the hammer.
 
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Human Priest
 
Whisperwind
Here's how I'd do it.

Time until the first proc after a cooldown is a binomial distribution, with a .15 chance every N seconds, where N is your average time between casts.

The mean time until your first proc is (1/.15)*N. (Roughly, your seventh cast.)

The sequence of events will be: A proc initiates the cooldown. The cooldown finishes, and then an average of 7 casts later, it procs again. So the time between procs is (cooldown) + 7 * (mean time between casts).
 
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Old 05/16/07, 12:06 PM   #45 (permalink)
Bald Bull
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Tichondrius
From the person who tested it, it seems that the proc is now on a 50 second hidden cooldown with a 50% proc rate (or something else around there)- based on the proc almost always going off before 60 seconds. The proc rate has gone down, but it's also more consistent. In addition, it's more powerful if there's ever a break in casting.
 
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Old 05/16/07, 12:13 PM   #46 (permalink)
Mass Teleport
 
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Lorentz
Troll Shaman
 
No WoW Account
My question is this: How do you do the math to work out the AVERAGE number of casts before you get a procs @ 15% chance?
The weighted average of the number of casts times the probability it procs on that cast says that you will wait 6.66 casts on average.
cast number n:                         1    2    3    4    5    6
probability of that cast procing it: .15  .128 .108 .092 .078 .067

The second line is given by (1-.85^n)-(1-.85^(n-1))
Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.

 
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Old 05/16/07, 1:02 PM   #47 (permalink)
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
So, let T be the time between procs, and C be the average time between casts. That means that T = 50 + (1/.15) * C. That means that I, the individual mana regained, is I = 100 / [ 50 + (1/.15) * C ] mana per second or 500 / T mp5 equivalent. Thus M, total mana regained (with P being the number of mana users in your party) is:

M = 500P / ( 50 + 20C/3 ) mp5

Thus, assuming a full party of casters:

Cast Time | Mana per 5
----------+-----------
     1.5s | 41.7 mp5
     2.0s | 39.5 mp5
     2.5s | 37.5 mp5
     3.0s | 35.7 mp5
     3.5s | 34.1 mp5
Edit:

Originally Posted by Erongg View Post
Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.
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Old 05/16/07, 2:14 PM   #48 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Priest
 
Bonechewer
Something that is kind of interesting when consitering weapon and trinket procs as they pertain to spellcasts is the usage of AoE healing spells. I have not tried this from a DPS standpoint but as holy priest I find that spells like Circle of Healing and Prayer of Healing are almost guaranteed proc spellsurge if its internal cooldown is ready. I have not done any sort of solid testing but I believe CoH counts as 5 spellcasts at once(more or less depending on pets and range). Spamming CoH 3 or 4 times will usually proc spellsurge, meditation and spellhaste all within a second of each other.

Overlooking the fact that I actually specced CoH, I think there is some merit in this claim as other holy priests in my guild will attest to. Is there any way to test this theory?
 
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Old 05/16/07, 2:21 PM   #49 (permalink)
Mass Teleport
 
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Lorentz
Troll Shaman
 
No WoW Account
One way would be to get 4 patient friends, go stand in Blackrock Mountain lava, and cast CoH or PoH. Record the number of casts before _x_ effect procs. Then wait for the internal cooldown and do it again. Do it like 10 times. If it procs on the first or second cast each time, that's pretty significant evidence that you're correct. If it frequently takes 4 or more casts for a 15% proc, you're probably not correct.

Edit: Just realized, if it procs on things like PW:F (does it?), you don't even need to go to Blackrock Mountain. Just stand around while your raid is forming up and cast Rank 1 Prayer of Fortitude on your party, wait one minute for the cooldown, and repeat until satisfied.

Last edited by Erongg : 05/16/07 at 2:32 PM.

 
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Old 05/16/07, 3:03 PM   #50 (permalink)
These are not the hammer.