Spellsurge - Page 2

graenger · 04/28/07, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Oren

Uh, 5

What's 100%/5 and what's 100%/20?

Moos3d · 04/28/07, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lanthon

9800 mana returned per group member for one Magtheridon encounter...I'd be interested in hearing how much mana a shadow priest could return during that fight. As a shadow priest, my group doesn't have mana issues often, making me wonder if Spellsurge is worth it in that case. I do wholeheartedly agree though that you can get two weapons (one of which has spellsurge) and just use them appropriately.

How many people in your group had it? There's no way one person could restore that much mana with it. It has a 30 second cooldown so it would have had to proc 98 times which would put the length of that Magtheridon kill at 49 minutes with one proc every 30 seconds.

Oren · 04/28/07, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by graenger

What's 100%/5 and what's 100%/20?

He said 20, VT is 5% return.

dukes · 04/28/07, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Oren

He said 20, VT is 5% return.

He said

divide your damage done by 20

So... 100% divided by 20 = 5%. Right?

felixjendrusch · 04/30/07, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Moos3d

How many people in your group had it? There's no way one person could restore that much mana with it. It has a 30 second cooldown so it would have had to proc 98 times which would put the length of that Magtheridon kill at 49 minutes with one proc every 30 seconds.

*selfquote*

Originally Posted by felixjendrusch

Today we were able to build our first group consisting of 5 healers with Spellsurge. I've counted all our Spellsurge procs during the Magtheridon encounter with an addon.

Spellsurge: You have gained 9800 Mana by Spellsurge (98 procs) in 17 minutes and 58 seconds.

Fitch · 05/01/07, 1:28 PM

Sorry to bump an old thread, but does anyone have concrete data on Spellsurge's proc rate on the PTR? I'd recopy over with the materials and test it myself if I could only find an Enchanter with the recipe.

rujeme · 05/02/07, 8:52 PM

I finally jumped on the PTR's and did some testing myself.

I used proctracker to track time inbetween procs. It's been confirmed (to my knowledge) that currently on live the spell has a 15% proc rate and a 30 second cooldown.

On PTR it seems that cooldown has been increased to 50 seconds.

Tested spamming rank 1 renew on myself, the smallest time between procs was slightly over 50 seconds (like 50.5 secs or something). That was after 15 minutes of spamming.
Everytime it proc'd by 60 seconds.

I don't have data to support the proc rate, but it appears to be consistent once the cooldown is up.

Ragnor · 05/02/07, 11:46 PM

20sec increase on the hidden CD

that sux, 81 +heal it starting to look better again.

Moe · 05/03/07, 6:35 AM

What do you think the efficiency of this enchant would be for dual wielding hunters with an enchant on both weapons?
Would that increase the number of procs (kinda like Crusader on two weapons)?
Would it be worth it for hunters over offensive enchants?

Dual Mongoose probably beats this I think ...

archz0r · 05/03/07, 6:42 AM

Are shots considered as spells?

Moe · 05/03/07, 6:44 AM

Originally Posted by archz0r

Are shots considered as spells?

Well they are considered as magic at least ... so I would say they are spells too. Also Steady Shot is "1,5 sec cast" in the tooltip, same for Arcane (Instant cast).

• Starbucks · 05/03/07, 8:05 AM

See if you can pull the materials over to the PTR and test it, I am heavilly considering getting this enchant once I get a weapon worthy of dropping the mats on it, I currently play an elemental shaman so it is either this or the +Damage. The change in the proc rate is does seem to lessen the chances of me using this over +Damage.

It is in tune with the patches intentions of reducing longetivity in certain classes though.

McInaction · 05/03/07, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Moe

What do you think the efficiency of this enchant would be for dual wielding hunters with an enchant on both weapons?
Would that increase the number of procs (kinda like Crusader on two weapons)?
Would it be worth it for hunters over offensive enchants?

Dual Mongoose probably beats this I think ...

Considering mongoose doesn't proc off melee attacks I doubt it.

Someone in another thread did some quick testing and was getting and got it to proc off kill command, fd, and switching aspects.

◊ Binkenstein · 05/03/07, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by rujeme

I finally jumped on the PTR's and did some testing myself.

I used proctracker to track time inbetween procs. It's been confirmed (to my knowledge) that currently on live the spell has a 15% proc rate and a 30 second cooldown.

On PTR it seems that cooldown has been increased to 50 seconds.

Tested spamming rank 1 renew on myself, the smallest time between procs was slightly over 50 seconds (like 50.5 secs or something). That was after 15 minutes of spamming.
Everytime it proc'd by 60 seconds.

I don't have data to support the proc rate, but it appears to be consistent once the cooldown is up.

So going from approx 2 ppm @ 16.67 mp5 per enchant per person to 1 every 50 seconds (~6 procs in 5 minutes) @ 10 mp5

Still preferable in healer groups, but if you "value" mp5 at less than 8.1 +heal, the healing enchant will be better on a personal basis.

Amaren · 05/04/07, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by smakback

At this point in BC raiding tanks are not dying because healers are running oom. Between chugging mana pots, major mageblood, and resto flasks I find myself hard sometimes hard pressed to spend my mana.

Perhaps when our gear gets better and adding 70 mp5 from a flask won't make such a huge difference in our mana pools will spellsurge be better. But for the time being I believe 81 healing has the advantage. The only exception I forsee are paladins who can spam their heals, but with the amount of raiding shadowpriests most guilds end up tossing a couple pallies with one giving them a huge mana pool.

Flasks are going to be nerfed in 2.1 which is a big hit for everyone not just alchemist, and also how many elixirs can be on a tank at any one time is also being changed. So therefore, I would have to assume more healers will be doing more healing and will want the mp5 over the increased healing..

levk · 05/07/07, 8:17 PM

I'm trying simple math here comparing having full party with spellsurge to 30 int on the same party. Even assuming it'd proc every 50 seconds on the dot for everyone, it's working out that it'll be 37.5 minutes before spellsurge edges ahead (basically 50 mp5 vs 150 int = 22500 mana), am I looking at it wrong? Because it looks real weak.

e: nevermind, clearly I'm awesome at math. More like 2250 mana meaning 7.5 minutes.

Xantcha · 05/07/07, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by levk

I'm trying simple math here comparing having full party with spellsurge to 30 int on the same party. Even assuming it'd proc every 50 seconds on the dot for everyone, it's working out that it'll be 37.5 minutes before spellsurge edges ahead (basically 50 mp5 vs 150 int = 22500 mana), am I looking at it wrong? Because it looks real weak.

e: nevermind, clearly I'm awesome at math. More like 2250 mana meaning 7.5 minutes.

Your math is indeed awesome.

50mp5 vs 150 Int.

2250 mana vs 10mp1

2250/10 = 225 Seconds for mp5 to equalise

3 minutes and 15 seconds. i.e. every fight in TBC

Dappercad · 05/16/07, 11:36 AM

As far as I understand it (and I may well not understand it) there is a 50 minute CD on the proc.

This means that on the PTR Spellsurge is NOT procing every 50 seconds unless you are luckier than god.

This means that Spellsurge is NOT equivilent to 10/5 for all in the party but is in fact equivilent to a smaller number.

My question is this: How do you do the math to work out the AVERAGE number of casts before you get a procs @ 15% chance?

Once I know that then I can fill in a few variables (How often am I casting in fight X) and then I can work out my mana/5 equivilency.

• CheshireCat · 05/16/07, 11:55 AM

Here's how I'd do it.

Time until the first proc after a cooldown is a binomial distribution, with a .15 chance every N seconds, where N is your average time between casts.

The mean time until your first proc is (1/.15)*N. (Roughly, your seventh cast.)

The sequence of events will be: A proc initiates the cooldown. The cooldown finishes, and then an average of 7 casts later, it procs again. So the time between procs is (cooldown) + 7 * (mean time between casts).

Copernicus · 05/16/07, 12:06 PM

From the person who tested it, it seems that the proc is now on a 50 second hidden cooldown with a 50% proc rate (or something else around there)- based on the proc almost always going off before 60 seconds. The proc rate has gone down, but it's also more consistent. In addition, it's more powerful if there's ever a break in casting.

• Erongg · 05/16/07, 12:13 PM

My question is this: How do you do the math to work out the AVERAGE number of casts before you get a procs @ 15% chance?

The weighted average of the number of casts times the probability it procs on that cast says that you will wait 6.66 casts on average.

cast number n:                         1    2    3    4    5    6
probability of that cast procing it: .15  .128 .108 .092 .078 .067

The second line is given by (1-.85^n)-(1-.85^(n-1))

Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.

Kazanir · 05/16/07, 1:02 PM

So, let T be the time between procs, and C be the average time between casts. That means that T = 50 + (1/.15) * C. That means that I, the individual mana regained, is I = 100 / [ 50 + (1/.15) * C ] mana per second or 500 / T mp5 equivalent. Thus M, total mana regained (with P being the number of mana users in your party) is:

M = 500P / ( 50 + 20C/3 ) mp5

Thus, assuming a full party of casters:

Cast Time | Mana per 5
----------+-----------
     1.5s | 41.7 mp5
     2.0s | 39.5 mp5
     2.5s | 37.5 mp5
     3.0s | 35.7 mp5
     3.5s | 34.1 mp5

Edit:

Originally Posted by Erongg

Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.

I love these forums.

Ninjakick · 05/16/07, 2:14 PM

Something that is kind of interesting when consitering weapon and trinket procs as they pertain to spellcasts is the usage of AoE healing spells. I have not tried this from a DPS standpoint but as holy priest I find that spells like Circle of Healing and Prayer of Healing are almost guaranteed proc spellsurge if its internal cooldown is ready. I have not done any sort of solid testing but I believe CoH counts as 5 spellcasts at once(more or less depending on pets and range). Spamming CoH 3 or 4 times will usually proc spellsurge, meditation and spellhaste all within a second of each other.

Overlooking the fact that I actually specced CoH, I think there is some merit in this claim as other holy priests in my guild will attest to. Is there any way to test this theory?

• Erongg · 05/16/07, 2:21 PM

One way would be to get 4 patient friends, go stand in Blackrock Mountain lava, and cast CoH or PoH. Record the number of casts before _x_ effect procs. Then wait for the internal cooldown and do it again. Do it like 10 times. If it procs on the first or second cast each time, that's pretty significant evidence that you're correct. If it frequently takes 4 or more casts for a 15% proc, you're probably not correct.

Edit: Just realized, if it procs on things like PW:F (does it?), you don't even need to go to Blackrock Mountain. Just stand around while your raid is forming up and cast Rank 1 Prayer of Fortitude on your party, wait one minute for the cooldown, and repeat until satisfied.