Spellsurge - Page 4

Erongg · 05/16/07, 11:13 AM

My question is this: How do you do the math to work out the AVERAGE number of casts before you get a procs @ 15% chance?

The weighted average of the number of casts times the probability it procs on that cast says that you will wait 6.66 casts on average.

cast number n:                         1    2    3    4    5    6
probability of that cast procing it: .15  .128 .108 .092 .078 .067

The second line is given by (1-.85^n)-(1-.85^(n-1))

Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.

Kazanir · 05/16/07, 12:02 PM

So, let T be the time between procs, and C be the average time between casts. That means that T = 50 + (1/.15) * C. That means that I, the individual mana regained, is I = 100 / [ 50 + (1/.15) * C ] mana per second or 500 / T mp5 equivalent. Thus M, total mana regained (with P being the number of mana users in your party) is:

M = 500P / ( 50 + 20C/3 ) mp5

Thus, assuming a full party of casters:

Cast Time | Mana per 5
----------+-----------
     1.5s | 41.7 mp5
     2.0s | 39.5 mp5
     2.5s | 37.5 mp5
     3.0s | 35.7 mp5
     3.5s | 34.1 mp5

Edit:

Originally Posted by Erongg

Extend that to infinity and take the weighted average.

I love these forums.

Ninjakick · 05/16/07, 1:14 PM

Something that is kind of interesting when consitering weapon and trinket procs as they pertain to spellcasts is the usage of AoE healing spells. I have not tried this from a DPS standpoint but as holy priest I find that spells like Circle of Healing and Prayer of Healing are almost guaranteed proc spellsurge if its internal cooldown is ready. I have not done any sort of solid testing but I believe CoH counts as 5 spellcasts at once(more or less depending on pets and range). Spamming CoH 3 or 4 times will usually proc spellsurge, meditation and spellhaste all within a second of each other.

Overlooking the fact that I actually specced CoH, I think there is some merit in this claim as other holy priests in my guild will attest to. Is there any way to test this theory?

Erongg · 05/16/07, 1:21 PM

One way would be to get 4 patient friends, go stand in Blackrock Mountain lava, and cast CoH or PoH. Record the number of casts before _x_ effect procs. Then wait for the internal cooldown and do it again. Do it like 10 times. If it procs on the first or second cast each time, that's pretty significant evidence that you're correct. If it frequently takes 4 or more casts for a 15% proc, you're probably not correct.

Edit: Just realized, if it procs on things like PW:F (does it?), you don't even need to go to Blackrock Mountain. Just stand around while your raid is forming up and cast Rank 1 Prayer of Fortitude on your party, wait one minute for the cooldown, and repeat until satisfied.

CheshireCat · 05/16/07, 2:03 PM

It does. I'm pretty sure it procs on anything that uses mana, which makes me think that the proc check would probably occur when the mana is spent and not differentiate between AOE and single target spells. Pure conjecture there, though.

Zaroua · 05/16/07, 2:49 PM

Let's make this interesting; get a mod that tracks proc cooldowns and incorporate said cooldown in your raid UI. Get the new and improved proc to go off (thus starting the 50 second cooldown) and swap out to another weapon and swap back to your Spellsurge weapon once the hidden cooldown is back up.

Now... is the Spellsurge cooldown tied to your character or the weapon/enchant? If it's the later then I'm gonna start considering using 4 or 5 different healing weapons to get chain Spellsurge procs going.

Edit: This is for my Paladin but I don't expect it to be different for other classes; changing weapons mid-heal does not cancel your heal or trigger the global cooldown. I haven't thoroughly tested this but healing a guard in Ironforge showed that swapping weapons to play with Spellsurge doesn't trigger GCD.

Kazanir · 05/16/07, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by CheshireCat

It does. I'm pretty sure it procs on anything that uses mana, which makes me think that the proc check would probably occur when the mana is spent and not differentiate between AOE and single target spells. Pure conjecture there, though.

It procs on warrior "spells" too. Yes, Brantus on Sargeras tested it and got Spellsurge to proc off of Demo Shout (and other warrior spells if memory serves.)

Ragnor · 05/16/07, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

Let's make this interesting; get a mod that tracks proc cooldowns and incorporate said cooldown in your raid UI. Get the new and improved proc to go off (thus starting the 50 second cooldown) and swap out to another weapon and swap back to your Spellsurge weapon once the hidden cooldown is back up.

Now... is the Spellsurge cooldown tied to your character or the weapon/enchant? If it's the later then I'm gonna start considering using 4 or 5 different healing weapons to get chain Spellsurge procs going.

Edit: This is for my Paladin but I don't expect it to be different for other classes; changing weapons mid-heal does not cancel your heal or trigger the global cooldown. I haven't thoroughly tested this but healing a guard in Ironforge showed that swapping weapons to play with Spellsurge doesn't trigger GCD.

I'm probably going to try this if I ever get maiden to drop her mace so can +heal that one and spell surge my current weapon.

Steely · 05/16/07, 6:13 PM

If you're a priest, you can just chuck a rank 1 PoH every 30 seconds or so and this is almost guaranteed to proc spellsurge. Also I found that if I am group buffing I usually end up with a spellsurge proc.

Considering how mp5 reliant we are it's just extra help. For some of the fights in Kara I'm reliant on chain casting top rank gheals to keep up with the damage (prince phase 2 anyone?). 81 healing on my weapon won't let me do this any longer nor neccessarily any better.

But as someone said earlier on in this thread, just carry around 1 weapon with an 81 healing enchant and one with spellsurge and use accordingly. I've got the Sha'tar mace for healing and Hand of Eternity for regen.

If you could convince all your group members to get it on their weapons it would be a pretty nice mana buff. However since I've been unable to convince my fellow guildy healers that the Sha'tar mace takes a set amount of hours to get whilst maiden/prince mace don't have to drop ever, I don't see myself having any success about explaining the benefits of spellsurge.

Oren · 05/17/07, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Steely

If you could convince all your group members to get it on their weapons it would be a pretty nice mana buff. However since I've been unable to convince my fellow guildy healers that the Sha'tar mace takes a set amount of hours to get whilst maiden/prince mace don't have to drop ever, I don't see myself having any success about explaining the benefits of spellsurge.

We've been rolling like that for a while now and its pretty solid. With intelligent group stacking(which I think we all pretty much do anyway for sp/shaman etc. these days), the return is quite good. Our WWS puts us at about 1.5 procs per minute per person, so even for a group with just three healers we're talking about thousands more mana.

Erongg · 05/17/07, 11:39 AM

Now... is the Spellsurge cooldown tied to your character or the weapon/enchant? If it's the later then I'm gonna start considering using 4 or 5 different healing weapons to get chain Spellsurge procs going.

If you can change out your weapon to get another proc, that would be very interesting. Blizzard would surely fix it though.

Cel · 05/17/07, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Erongg

If you can change out your weapon to get another proc, that would be very interesting. Blizzard would surely fix it though.

You could do this with Crusader (and I assume Mongoose) if you used a macro to swap a third weapon in following a double Crusader proc. It really wasn't much of a DPS boost, if I remember correctly.

• Shalas · 05/17/07, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Erongg

If you can change out your weapon to get another proc, that would be very interesting. Blizzard would surely fix it though.

The easiest way to test this would probably be an Ehn shaman with dual Spellsurge. If the number of procs is higher than with single spellsurge, it's item-specific, and character-specific otherwise. I suspect it's the latter though, as I can't think of any items with visible cooldowns where triggering the cooldown on one doesn't trigger it on all copies of that item you have.

subscience · 05/17/07, 12:51 PM

I enchanted my Light's Justice with Spellsurge out of curiosity and so far I like it. Casters in my group noticed it before I had even mentioned it and with Mana Spring, 2/4 T4, and Improved Restorative Totems talent, I can provide nearly as much MP/5 to my group as a BoW.

I keep my Shard of the Virtuous with a healing enchant for when I'm in melee groups, though.

Cloudgatherer · 05/17/07, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

I can't think of any items with visible cooldowns where triggering the cooldown on one doesn't trigger it on all copies of that item you have.

But it's different for enchants. Double Crusader or Mongoose still work, right (or was that changed so they no longer stack)? So possibly a double spellsurge (for the dual wielding shaman case) could work as well.