A guldie and I got in a rather heated discussion last night about the PvE viability of the Gladiator's Xbow. My opinion is that it's just to slow; I have yet to find a shot cycle that would utilize the white damage range of the xbow enough to out DPS Sunfury. Anyone raiding w/ this thing? If you are what kind of numbers are you putting out? 2.9 w/ a 15% quiver just seems to be the quintessential speed for shot threading. Thanks in advance.
If this has already been talked about I apologize...just shitheap it.
Have you tried a double steady Shot cycle ? I'm trying to get to gladiators too so im curious, how would it be. I know you will lose som DPS with increasing the delay between shots with 2 SSs but try and see.
Sunfury Bow with quiver is an attack speed of 2.52
Now take into account 1.5 seconds to release a steady shot, you have 1 second left to make your next move, GCD generally is 1 second so you could fit an arcane or multi-shot in before auto shot...
That all is assuming you have a ping of 0. Now lets go back to reality here where you have a ping of about 100ms or so and you don't have the reflexes of a cat(so to say).
Glad X-Bow with quiver is an attack speed of 2.78
2.78-1.5 for steady is 1.28 seconds to release your second shot before auto gets cut off.
Now maybe it is just me, but it seems that the Glad X-Bow is a lot more realistic of a speed to perform a near perfect shot rotation without cutting off your auto shots. On top of the fact that its bottom and top end are quite a bit higher.
I have used both, and I prefer the Gladiator X-Bow hands down. The shot speed is a lot more realistic for anyone who doesn't live next door to their server.
That's the rotation I use, the only catch to it is that it requires Imp. Arcane Shot. I would love to post damage meters for specific fights, but not everyone is blessed with a Shaman who drops GOA/Spring/SOE, Feral Druid, and a Shadow Priest, which seems to be the group make up for most of the DPS meter shots posted lately. And to be honest, my spec right now is not the best for PVE DPS.
Problem with Glad X-Bow is that hunters spend a lot time under haste effects. Assuming any decent haste effects and Gladiator x-bow looses much of it's appeal as it still is impossible to get decent 2shot rotations with it due to Imp. Aspect of the Pack procs etc.
I was just wondering if it would have its use for a BM hunter. Quiver und Serpents Swiftness bring the speed to 2.32. Would the following rotation be viable considering lag and reaction time with 0.2 or would the delay of the Autoshots eat away to much damage?
Steady Shot casting time with 15% quiver = 1.3.
Auto Shot unable to fire for 1.3 + 0.5 = 1.8 seconds.
1.5 seconds.
What you say here I think actually helps the idea of using the Glad X-Bow over Sunfury.
Anyways, whatever these numbers say, I speak from experience here when I say that the Glad X-Bow is a better weapon to use because of the slow speed I can shoot two shots without cutting off my Auto Shot.
I haven't done the math for the two shots between auto shot cycle with a slow weapon because frankly, the damage difference I had when I started using this bow was so noticeable I didn't feel the need to justify it.
Problem with Glad X-Bow is that hunters spend a lot time under haste effects. Assuming any decent haste effects and Gladiator x-bow looses much of it's appeal as it still is impossible to get decent 2shot rotations with it due to Imp. Aspect of the Pack procs etc.
The thing about haste effects, at least as a Troll, is when I activate Rapid Fire I am also activating Beserking, and what I have noticed about that is that it is almost perfect shot timer to switch from a 2 shot between auto cycle to a 1 shot between auto cycle based on my current speed.
Basically what I'm saying is that just because unhasted I am shooting 2 shots between my auto doesn't mean that when I pop my haste effects I can't just start shooting with a priority cycle.
Last edited by Renato : 04/04/07 at 6:00 PM.
Reason: Need to quote a post.
Besides looking at just the speed, the pure damage increase itself is enough of an upgrade over sunfury even with a suboptimal shot cycle. I have seen a hunter using this keep up with well-geared affliction locks, even on long fights, so even assuming it was all skill, at the very least it won't gimp you.
Anyways, whatever these numbers say, I speak from experience here when I say that the Glad X-Bow is a better weapon to use because of the slow speed I can shoot two shots without cutting off my Auto Shot.
Thinking about the rotation just off the top of my head it seems like your going to clip an auto on every other double special shot.
The question is this...is squeezing two specials before an auto in shot rotation optimal for damage or mana? For example I set my shot rotation like this
Multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-arcane(multi timer up)-multi-steady-auto-steady-auto-arcane-(multi timer up)-so on and so forth.
With steelhawk (ewww I know) i'm able to thread my auto's in with what seems like a seemless rotation w/out clipping untill I get to the third rotation or so. I'm at work so I dont have the time to crunch the numbers but I will when I get home.
Problem with Glad X-Bow is that hunters spend a lot time under haste effects. Assuming any decent haste effects and Gladiator x-bow looses much of it's appeal as it still is impossible to get decent 2shot rotations with it due to Imp. Aspect of the Pack procs etc.
Yeah, I got the Glad Xbow as well... for PvE, I'm in mostly lvl 70 instance blues with the occasional PvP epic piece thrown in. I came in 3rd on Gruul, which is damn good keeping in mind 2 things:
1) The other hunter in the raid was in a lot of Kharazan epics & used Wolfslayer Sniper & came in around 10th
2) Our guild has 2 groups clearing Khara, so most of our casters have at least some epics from there, of which I have none.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is I agree with the above guy - I'm by no stretch of the imagination the best PvE hunter. I'd say I'm above average, good even... which just goes to show how much the Glad Xbow helps
And besides, who can resist those 3.5k Aimed Shot misdirected hits?
Have you tried a double steady Shot cycle ? I'm trying to get to gladiators too so im curious, how would it be. I know you will lose som DPS with increasing the delay between shots with 2 SSs but try and see.
It would be close..your looking at 1.3+1.3 on a 2.8ish atk speed...factoring lag and everything else your probably clipping your auto most of the time.
Auto Shot requires 0.5 seconds to cast.
In other words, double Steady Shot with 15% quiver, no lag / reaction time:
1.5 + (1.5/1.15) + 0.5 = 3.30
This is the fastest you can fire an Auto Shot if you insist on placing two Steady Shots inbetween.
This equals a 3.80 weapon, pre-quiver.
Of course, so slow weapons don't exist, and this is without lag / reaction time.
In other words, if you insist on placing double Steady Shots between each Auto Shot, you will delay each Auto Shot, albeit possibly not by any large amount.
Edit: Corrected figures.
Last edited by Lactose : 04/04/07 at 9:03 PM.
Reason: Now with Global Cooldown!
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
In other words, if you insist on placing double Steady Shots between each Auto Shot, you will delay each Auto Shot, albeit possibly not by any large amount.
The question for a 3.2 speed weapon is whether that delay nets you a DPS gain or loss. WHich depends on your weapon DPS and stats.
The question for a 3.2 speed weapon is whether that delay nets you a DPS gain or loss. WHich depends on your weapon DPS and stats.
Well it goes without saying that the white damage on the xbow is the best you can get by far with the current bow selection. As far as stats go there is better out there to suppliment your arcane/steady shot.
I'm hoping to see something silly from Lady V. but all I can do is hope.
Auto Shot requires 0.5 seconds to cast.
In other words, double Steady Shot with 15% quiver, no lag / reaction time:
2*(1.5/1.15) + 0.5 = 3.11
This is the fastest you can fire an Auto Shot if you insist on placing two Steady Shots inbetween.
Wouldn't the fastest be 1.5 + (1.5/1.15) + 0.5, due to having to wait for global cooldown on the first steady shot? (assuming 0 lag / reaction time that is; in practice global cooldown on quiver hasted only steady shot isn't noticeable)
Wouldn't the fastest be 1.5 + (1.5/1.15) + 0.5, due to having to wait for global cooldown on the first steady shot? (assuming 0 lag / reaction time that is; in practice global cooldown on quiver hasted only steady shot isn't noticeable)
Ouch, indeed. Was toying with some random spreadsheet stuff I found and just copied what it spat out.
Which, in turn, reminds me to check if I'm making the same mistake in my current version. Hmm...
Thanks.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Ouch, indeed. Was toying with some random spreadsheet stuff I found and just copied what it spat out.
Which, in turn, reminds me to check if I'm making the same mistake in my current version. Hmm...
Thanks.
Lactose do you have anything to simulate the DPS using a rotation mentioned above? Just curious to see if clipping every auto with a double SS rotation yields higher damage w/ the xbow than using a multi-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-arcane-multi rotation on a 2.9 speed weapon(15% hasted ofcourse). Thanks!
The question is this...is squeezing two specials before an auto in shot rotation optimal for damage or mana? For example I set my shot rotation like this
Optimal for damage, the shot cycle is very very(very) mana intensive. Fel Mana Pots, Shadow Priest, Major Mageblood are enough to easily counteract the mana inefficiency though so the cycle works best if you are over the mana efficiency issue and want to maximize DPS.
Besides looking at just the speed, the pure damage increase itself is enough of an upgrade over sunfury even with a suboptimal shot cycle. I have seen a hunter using this keep up with well-geared affliction locks, even on long fights, so even assuming it was all skill, at the very least it won't gimp you.
I'd have to disagree with the general statement of looking at weapon dps over speed. From my experience, weapon speed plays a way bigger role than weapon dps/stats. On our first Doomwalker kill, I naively took the Barrel-Blade Longrifle, a 2.6 weapon. After playing with it for almost a month, I am now going back to my Emberhakw Crossbow - a 3.0 weapon that's almost 10 dps lower.
For PVP, the crossbow is definitely harder hitting, where multishot is approximately 30-35% of my damage. The crit rating is also a nice bonus. But also for PVE, I can easily fit arcane or (with little delay) multishot right after steady shot. With the gun, however, I can only settle for either steady shot, multishot, or arcane between 2 autoshots, and the gun only gets more frustrating to use with rapid fire/berserking/bloodlust.
I can't speak for the the gladiator xbow yet, as I am still a couple of weeks away point-wise from getting it. But chances are, I'm going to like it a lot, with more times in between autoshots to play with, and the ability to adjust to a different shot cycle with haste effects on you. An increase of about 230 more damage per multishot over my current weapon doesn't sound too bad, either =)
I've also seen a hunter do very good dps with a barrel-blade longrifle. You can pretty much make a cycle work for any speed. Some speeds will clip auto more frequently, and some speeds will end up being "better", but they're all competetive as long as you use them properly, at least that's my opinion from what i've seen. Certainly there's a point that's too fast, but when you're looking to minimize dead shot time by avoiding slower weapons, you can always just throw in another shot and chances are you'll do more damage than you would waiting.
I've also seen a hunter do very good dps with a barrel-blade longrifle. You can pretty much make a cycle work for any speed. Some speeds will clip auto more frequently, and some speeds will end up being "better", but they're all competetive as long as you use them properly.
I've tried both clipping and nonclipping with the gun, and the dps I end up with are very similar to Emberhawk. Sure, the gun gives more procs on IAotH, Mark of Conquest, and others due to its autoshot speed, but my dps is penalized whenever bloodlust and other haste buffs are up. Given that Emberhawk is also better for PVP, I really see no real reason to use the gun over the crossbow.
How many shot weaving rotations are out there? Three? The ones I can think of off the top of my head:
Fast (2.8 and faster) Weapons - One Special Per Auto:
Auto->Arcane->Auto->Multi->Auto->Steady->etc.
Slow (2.9 and slower) Weapons - One Steady, One Special, One Auto:
Steady->Arcane->Auto->Steady->Multi->Auto->Steady->Arcane->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->etc.
"Clipping" Priority Queue - Spam What You Got When You Got It:
Multi->Arcane->Steady->Wash Rinse Repeat (Auto fits in whenever the hell it wants)
Priority Queue No Clipping - Spam What You Got As Long As It Doesn't Interfere With Auto:
[You get the picture]
There are probably "clipping" variations of the first two that you can conceivably think of as well...
While the posts about speed vs DPS considerations are nice, when I said that whether the delay of the autoshot in favour of getting an extra steadyshot is a net DPS gain or not depends on weapon DPS, I was referring to the fact that both the steady and auto hit values depend on your weapon DPS. So saying "I can squeeze specials in after autoshots with a lower DPS weapon" doesn't really say anything about your DPS, since those steady shots are hitting for less. You need to math out for yourself which rotation your AP/crit/speed/weaponDPS favours.
Re: emberhawk vs the doomwalker rifle - the retarded cost of adamantite shells would be reason enough for me to use the xbow
04/04/07, 9:22 AM
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