Well well, anyone of you guys had un-explainable crushing blows? Random Hits that were not blocked and should have been?
It appears you can be crushed any time your shield touches your back, even on instant casts ( cleanse, consecration, exorcism, etc ). Seems to be a bug related to the animation your character is doing since Holy shield doesn't do it, but if you are hit while your hand is in the air for consecrate, for example, the 15% crushing chance returns.
According to this screen shot, no charges of holy shield were yet consumed, but a non blocked hit still got through.
If this is intended, we will have to time Consecration, Cleanse and Exorsism to be casted in between mob's swings, while not busting the GCD to not have Holy shield up. Wich will be impossible to do while AoE tanking Mobs.
As I said in the other thread, I tried to duplicate this bug by fighting about a dozen mobs in Stockades at once and looking for breaks in the string of constant miss/dodge/parry/blocks when I cleansed or consecrated. Given the number of mobs I was fighting, I'd think there should have been a fairly clear spike in actual damaging attacks when I cast a spell, but I didn't notice any.
But your screenshot is hard to argue with. You were able to melee and parry the worg, so it couldn't have been hitting you from behind, and that first tick of consecration shows pretty clearly when you did the cast. I can't offhand think of any other way you could be in error.
I'm going to try to test this a bit more.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I am not certain which other thread (this forum?) Cathela is referring to, but this was reported on the WOW bug forum and is being investigated according to Hortus.
The video linked in the first page of the thread is very telling; right around 11:00 in, he takes a crushing blow right after Consecrate, and there's still charges of Holy Shield up visible on his buff list. He actually takes another crush with HS up around 13:30 when he drinks a potion and casts consecrate at the same time.
Well Cathela against stockade mobs you're probably pretty close to 100% avoidance even without block, if you were in defense gear.
Yeah, but I was still getting a significant number of blocks. /shrug
Anyway, the discussion in the thread linked by novaspehere seems pretty solid, and the video looks pretty damning, so I'm convinced. Although I'll probably go test it against some high-level mobs tomorrow just to see for myself.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I don't really remember where i have read it, but i've heard that during spellcasting a character's avoidance is essentially set to zero, i.e. it is not possible to dodge/parry when you are spellcasting. Am i seeing things, or there is strong evidences about that ?
Originally Posted by zeidrich
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I don't really remember where i have read it, but i've heard that during spellcasting a character's avoidance is essentially set to zero, i.e. it is not possible to dodge/parry when you are spellcasting. Am i seeing things, or there is strong evidences about that ?
It appears that that's exactly what's happening. The theory seems to be that when you cast a spell, you lose the ability to block until your next autoattack swing.
This is something that could easily have been part of the game all along, but nobody ever paid much attention to, since there were no classes that were intended to mix heavy-duty tanking along with spellcasting animations.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The same happens when you drink a potion, as I recall. Apparently the act of putting away your shield still allows you to dodge and parry, but blocking no longer is possible.
I never thought about that till today, but after testing it for more than 3 hours, I'd say this is indeed true. Didn't capture any data, but it's quite simple to find out yourselves if you're not sure. I had a Fury-Warrior beating on me for some high attackspeed and in maybe 70% of the tries he managed to hit me while I still had 3-4 charges of HS up, everytime I consecrated or used a (cheap lvl2) pot.
Having in mind that I'll tank Malchezzar tomorrow I really don't feel very well anymore.
I'm still not quite sure, if it will work, but as only the animation, not any CD seems to be triggered, it might be possible to reduce this issue to maybe 0,001 seconds as some kind of workaround. Putting every related spell into a macro and closing it with /startattack (same as rightclick to reset the animation, but faster)
might work.
I'm not sure bout that, guess we'll just have to find out...
I never thought about that till today, but after testing it for more than 3 hours, I'd say this is indeed true. Didn't capture any data, but it's quite simple to find out yourselves if you're not sure. I had a Fury-Warrior beating on me for some high attackspeed and in maybe 70% of the tries he managed to hit me while I still had 3-4 charges of HS up, everytime I consecrated or used a (cheap lvl2) pot.
Having in mind that I'll tank Malchezzar tomorrow I really don't feel very well anymore.
Well I can at least solve your Prince problem. Essentially paladins have the advantage of not only have very high threat but being able to dump it quickly. Use your wings and every trick in your books in phase 1, the idea is to build your threat to a point where you could just stand there for the rest of the time and it wouldn't matter(and it's possible with paladin threat). When phase 2 comes along stick to holy shield and your melee+SoR, he will eat through 4 HS charges in less than 10 seconds, watch for it and consecrate when HS drops that way your not loosing anything, you should have more than enough threat to keep aggro solid and when phase 3 comes you can go back to normal threat generation.
Actually. Drekor, if you consecrate you're considered to be spellcasting (until you re-arm your shield anyway), which means if prince decides to melee you just as you drop a consecrate (or pot, or exorcism), the only avoidance you have is the mob's miss chance (what I'm saying is that if prince melees you while casting you lose all parry/dodge/block).
1 macro for every related spell, but you'll have to hit it at least twice as /cast and /startattack are two seperated actions.
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Using /stopattack instead of /cleartarget + /targetlasttarget will work too, but I dont like it, as it can stop AA if you don't count the clicks exactly.
Both will reset the animation as soon as you reach /startattack so there is still maybe 0,1 seconds to be hit, but I guess that better than nothing. Gonna give this a try on Malchezaar in some hours, lets hope it reduces the risk....
A warrior wanted to test his mitigation a bit back in our Naxx days and had me autoattack him for some time... he didn't pull his shield out and couldn't figure out for a while why he wasn't blocking a thing... so it's not the fact that it was a spell cast, it's the fact that when you perform a spell cast you have to put your weapon/shield away.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
Was experiencing similar at Maulgar and old Romulo, this was the only conclusion I could come to, but found nothing on it. Respecced Holy immediately after, so never checked it out fully myself, but this evidence is indeed damning. Question is, can it be fixed without breaking another area of the game? Or do we spam the cancel attack, restart attack macro for several months?
Has to be an oversight from Blizzard's. Someone there probably thought it would be neat and "realistic" that you can't parry or block attacks unless you are actually wielding your sword and shield, but didn't see into the consequences of that.
Doesn't sound like a hard fix. Either allow players to parry/block without having their gear wielded, or dont force you to sheathe it while casting (would cause some interesting things)
Has to be an oversight from Blizzard's. Someone there probably thought it would be neat and "realistic" that you can't parry or block attacks unless you are actually wielding your sword and shield, but didn't see into the consequences of that.
Doesn't sound like a hard fix. Either allow players to parry/block without having their gear wielded, or dont force you to sheathe it while casting (would cause some interesting things)
Or, just change the animations on Consecrate and company.
Has to be an oversight from Blizzard's. Someone there probably thought it would be neat and "realistic" that you can't parry or block attacks unless you are actually wielding your sword and shield, but didn't see into the consequences of that.
Doesn't sound like a hard fix. Either allow players to parry/block without having their gear wielded, or dont force you to sheathe it while casting (would cause some interesting things)
More likely they never indended to require tanks to have 100% avoidance all the time to avoid crushing blows. It was more of a side effect of the CB mechanics and the hit table they decided to use.
I believe CBs were something to make fighting +3 mobs less reasonable. (IE: During the levelling process) and turned into something more.
I think it's something that they, when they were originally designing animations etc, didn't fully realize the implications of. (That 80% of your time would be actually spent fighting mobs rated +3) but as things progressed they decided they liked it.
Since as that evolution was taking place, (MC->Naxx) paladins weren't in a position to tank, the fact that our skills made us succeptible to CBs was never even considered. I mean, to even think of a paladin getting crush immune pre-BC is absolutely ridiculous. It was hard enough to even get crit immune. While all the while warriors could just keep shield blocking.
The paladin class, (and in my mind all classes) were originally designed around tanking at most +2 mobs, with +3 being a serious challenge due to crushes and glances.
It's really funny when I go to tank a heroic and realize that all of the work I've done to make myself crush immune is completely wasted because nothing in the zone has the potential to crush me. I finally feel like I can itemize like a warrior and worry about stamina rather than trying to boost myself up to a ridiculous 65% avoidance. And despite the fact that things may hit really really hard, if I cast a consecretion and my shield goes on my back for a second, I'm not putting myself in a position to be 2 shotted. At worst I'll take an extra 200-300 damage because I was unable to block.
I was trying the other day to solo kill the dragon in blasted lands in defensive gear (500+ defense), and I tried to bandage when he was casting one of his longer casting flames, and I noticed I got CRITTED while I was bandaging, so I guess something happens when you cast.
I was trying the other day to solo kill the dragon in blasted lands in defensive gear (500+ defense), and I tried to bandage when he was casting one of his longer casting flames, and I noticed I got CRITTED while I was bandaging, so I guess something happens when you cast.
Well, this is a different story; Teremus the Devourer has a crit chance higher than your average mob.
A (Blizzard side) fix for this shouldn't be too difficult. They should just make it such that our avoidance doesn't drop to 0% when we're casting instant casts. I understand completely why avoidance drops to 0% while we're casting a spell, but for an instant cast, it doesn't make as much sense.
I can't really forsee too many complications that would arise from a change like this. Shamans would be able to block now while dropping totems or shocking, but how many shamans take shield spec over ancestral knowledge? Even still, it's not like shamans need to go crushing or crit immune anyways.
I suppose it would also make it more difficult for melee to hit a pally who's running away in PvP? But I don't see WoW kiddies could start crying rivers over "zomg he blocked while he cleaned, haxxor"
Avoidance doesn't drop to 0 while casting. You can still dodge, and you may still be able to parry. I've parried while mounted, so it'd be worth testing. Just get a DW to attack while you cast holy light in your tank gear, you should get at least a dodge once in a while.
04/04/07, 10:09 AM
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