On Nightbane I use a "careful cycle" when his timer is up. I only use Shield Slam and Revenge. The removal of devastate makes me much calmer and less spammy on the buttons. That way I never find myself accidently spamming a gcd when the ground starts shaking. Make sure that DPS knows to chill out on ground phases.
My point was it's going to be pretty rough for a non-protection warrior.
A lot of tanks only SB+HS on Nightbane when his fear cooldown is up, so you have your global cooldown ready for zerker rage. This really cuts into your threat gen. Not a big issue with Fear Ward I guess.
berzerker rage is on GCD, but stance switching isnt. its pretty safe to use GCD abilities... even if you cant quite get the rage off before the fear, as long as you get into berzerker stance before it goes off and wail on berzerker rage, you will almost never be feared for more than a quarter of a second or so.
"/cast [stance:3] berserker rage; berserker stance" is your friend. just get that on a button and start mashing it as soon as fear begins to cast.
(edit)
btw... enemy casting bars > ground shake. any good warrior UI setup should have a clearly visible enemy casting bar (something that uses the actual blizzard-supplied enemy cast bar, not a combat log parser like natur enemy cast bar). i like eCastingBar... its a lot easier to miss a ground shake than it is to miss a big yellow bar popping up on your screen that says bellowing roar.
Last edited by stampy : 04/18/07 at 10:43 AM.
Reason: more info, saw a new post to reply to.
If rage was not a concern at all, what would be the highest threat cycle a warrior could use?
there actually isnt really a "rotation" per se. ability cooldowns never end up lining up perfectly with the global cooldowns, and no matter how fast you mash your buttons or how fast your internet connection is, you arent firing off abilities at a perfect 1.5s pace.
what you want more of a priority list for skills, always hitting the highest threat-per-second ability available. shield slam > revenge > sunder/devastate. as others have noted, heroic strike every swing.
if you have four pieces of tier 4, you should probably move revenge to the top... get the 10% extra damage on shield slam after a revenge. too bad tier 4 is so ... meh.
berzerker rage is on GCD, but stance switching isnt. its pretty safe to use GCD abilities... even if you cant quite get the rage off before the fear, as long as you get into berzerker stance before it goes off and wail on berzerker rage, you will almost never be feared for more than a quarter of a second or so.
I know this. Being feared for even a quarter of a second can be pretty devastating for anyone that hasn't done NB a couple times.
Tanking Nightbane always leaves me a nervous wreck.
I like to stand almost inside him when tanking. If I'm on the edge of his hit box and get feared for a quarter second, he's more likely to run out of my range.
How I've done Nightbane is I use my Berserker Rage cooldown timer to guage basically unload my highest threat cycles, and when Berserker Rage cooldown comes up, I do rare Sunders to keep up the debuff and HS every cycle and shield block. I'm usually far enough ahead it gives me some time to easily dance the fear, however it certainly would be easier with fear ward or if Berserker Rage didn't trigger the GCD.
berzerker rage is on GCD, but stance switching isnt. its pretty safe to use GCD abilities... even if you cant quite get the rage off before the fear, as long as you get into berzerker stance before it goes off and wail on berzerker rage, you will almost never be feared for more than a quarter of a second or so.
I beg to differ here. Being feared for even a split second can mean a caster can be one shotted. It is THAT bad when you consider lag issues: you break fear, do some action to get back on his aggro list but he seeminly does not notice ... that's been my experience.
For this reason alone activating berserker rage *before* the fear is of highest priority. But since they nerfed his damage output I'd suggest to just tank him in berserker stance the last few seconds when fear should be cast, or (when you're confident with your stance switching) at least keep open the GCD ... tank by heroic strikes only.
I like to stand almost inside him when tanking. If I'm on the edge of his hit box and get feared for a quarter second, he's more likely to run out of my range.
You dont need to hit him after being feared to get his aggro. Just do some aggro generating ability like bloodrage or BattleShout and he is all yours.
Don't you think sitting in zerker is still a bit dangerous? If he crushes you in zerker and cleaves/breaths or parries you for a second hit, you're done. I hate even being in zerker for those 2-3 seconds to bump the fear, especially if shield block drops during it.
As said, switching has no GCD to anything but other stance changes, practice your trigger finger to switch asap.
Hey guy,
Can any give me a quick post on "how to tank as a fury warrior?"
And what is the best threat generating skill for fury warriors?
Is it: Heroic strike > Revenge > Sunder ?
What is the best(quickest) way to generate threats as a fury warrior?
Thanks alot
How I've done Nightbane is I use my Berserker Rage cooldown timer to guage basically unload my highest threat cycles, and when Berserker Rage cooldown comes up, I do rare Sunders to keep up the debuff and HS every cycle and shield block. I'm usually far enough ahead it gives me some time to easily dance the fear, however it certainly would be easier with fear ward or if Berserker Rage didn't trigger the GCD.
No, no, no. We don't need fear ward. Remember, Eyonix told me so.
Originally Posted by Eyonix
Keep in mind something extremely relevant and important. An ability which prevents fear from affecting a character, while useful under certain circumstances, is going to have far less use in the Burning Crusade, not to mention a diminished level of impact. Not only will crowd control mechanics such as fear be far less effective in player vs player situations, in both raid and dungeons we don't plan to empower too many mobs with fear.
Try to absorb this change for what it is and what it will mean rather than allow this "old argument" to dictate your disposition.
Beyond all of the above, there will be new ways (for both factions) to remove and/or prevent fear in the Burning Crusade. So, in short -- lay down that crutch, you don't need it anymore. :P
I beg to differ here. Being feared for even a split second can mean a caster can be one shotted. It is THAT bad when you consider lag issues: you break fear, do some action to get back on his aggro list but he seeminly does not notice ... that's been my experience.
For this reason alone activating berserker rage *before* the fear is of highest priority. But since they nerfed his damage output I'd suggest to just tank him in berserker stance the last few seconds when fear should be cast, or (when you're confident with your stance switching) at least keep open the GCD ... tank by heroic strikes only.
Tanking him in berserker stance always seems like an exercise in futility to me. While his fear might take 30 seconds to cooldown, I've gone for entire ground phases without him casting it, which is to say: the last few seconds may take a minute or two. Sitting around with no shield block and 20% more damage taken (from going Defensive -> Berserker) just seems like your begging for some back to back 7k crushes. Moreover, the decreased threat generation means that any raid member who wants to can get aggro from you. (They shouldn't, but that doesn't mean they wont)
Tanking him in berserker stance always seems like an exercise in futility to me. While his fear might take 30 seconds to cooldown, I've gone for entire ground phases without him casting it, which is to say: the last few seconds may take a minute or two. Sitting around with no shield block and 20% more damage taken (from going Defensive -> Berserker) just seems like your begging for some back to back 7k crushes. Moreover, the decreased threat generation means that any raid member who wants to can get aggro from you. (They shouldn't, but that doesn't mean they wont)
I can echo this. He's gone as long as 3 minutes between the cooldown being up and him fearing before. That's an awful long time to be sitting vulnerable. The rumble should be all you need, a cooldown tracker is nice to know when you need to be on the look out for it to alter your cycles to have your cooldown up to shift. One other thing you may want try is pre-emptive raging if you're the gambling type, remember that it gives 10 seconds of fear immunity every 30 seconds. If you need the practice, go back and practice on onyxia for a while. It just seems a basic tanking skill to me to be able to dance fears. I've done nightbane without fear ward or tremor totem, so it can be done.
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
I've done nightbane without fear ward or tremor totem, so it can be done.
Maybe our shaman are just slow, but I've never found tremor totem to be useful as anything more than a safety net for this fight. People will still die if you screw up and fail to break fear. That said, as long as you shift to zerker stance before the fear, you can still get aggro back very easily after being feared.
If I'm a second slow, I usually just use demo shout immediately after zerker rage to get him back. He'll move, but it's not that big a deal as long as he doesn't breath on anyone and you don't get tail whipped.
Don't you think sitting in zerker is still a bit dangerous? If he crushes you in zerker and cleaves/breaths or parries you for a second hit, you're done. I hate even being in zerker for those 2-3 seconds to bump the fear, especially if shield block drops during it.
Yes, these last "few seconds" can last for a while, I agree. Still I think its the better option for the warriors without the latency/stance switching experience needed to change to berserker stance just in time. Besides it's obviously gear dependant, but I never came close to dying the last clears.
As said, switching has no GCD to anything but other stance changes, practice your trigger finger to switch asap.
As for the others suggesting just switching stances ^^... I know how to dance and I know that stance switching is not on GCD ... I never had fear ward when killing Nighbane.
He runs too fucking fast. I have missed the fear by like, goddamn not even a half second and he gets 10 yards away in the blink of an eye, even if he turns back at me w/o killing anyone everyone has to scramble to avoid tail swipe because he is at a completely different angle.
WRU Fear Ward?
Seriously how does Alliance get two races with Fear Ward before the Horde gets one? Why cant it just be a class ability?
He runs too fucking fast. I have missed the fear by like, goddamn not even a half second and he gets 10 yards away in the blink of an eye, even if he turns back at me w/o killing anyone everyone has to scramble to avoid tail swipe because he is at a completely different angle.
I 100% second that observation. Therefore I recommend to just tanking him without blocking the GCD (read: just using heroic strikes). Even when I'm breaking the fear just after it has happened, nightbane can look directly into the healer or caster camp ... and if we are unlucky with his breath ... you know the rest.
So activating berserker rage just when the earth shakes is paramount. Since the bellowing roar cast is so short, berserker rage being on GCD can be a serious problem.
Fear Ward makes the fight trivial, since thats the only hard part about him IMHO.
Yes thats coming from an alliance player ... but since our kara group never gets that damned short dwarf of ours ^^ ...
set on my bar, then use bongos to bind it to my middle mouse button (roller) and just spam that when i see the ground shake inc (enemy cast bar is always useful). None of my DPS have to hold back, and i dont wait for fear with the hate making abilities, just stay on my toes for the 5 or so mins of the fight.
Fear Ward makes the fight trivial, since thats the only hard part about him IMHO.
I disagree. The hardest part is the flight phase imo. The entire ground phase, with or without fear, is pretty easy. There is no DPS or HPS check (anymore). Only when he flies off you get some time pressure to assist train the skeletons and to keep everyone alive in the chaos.
This doesnt mean I like fear fights. It's a bit stupid to put the entire raid's fate into one person's reflexes and connection speed. If Blizzard absolutely wants to keep AoE fear as part of raids then they should either make Bellowing Roar a 3 second cast or move Berserker Rage off the gcd. Both options give you a real 2 second reaction time instead of a 0.5 second "dont use the gcd now or you are screwed" window.
I was looking for a list of abilities with their respective threat values but I couldn't seem to find it.
Does anyone have said list?
www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro is a great list. note that the value listed for any ability that causes damage is in addition to aggro from damage done; most notably, the 1.75*damage threat from improved thunderclap means that the total threat is 2.75*damage. its also worth noting that (i think) unimproved thunderclap gets a 2.5x bonus; they scaled it down as more points were put in because the threat from fully improved thunderclap would be obscene.
Originally Posted by Twid
Nice job on the spreadsheet. If the devastate calculations are correct, it doesn't take too much in the way of AP for it to be better than sunder using a King's Defender. I'd be curious if one of the math majors could take a look at it though to double check it.
its very easy to tell if your devastate is doing more damage than a sunder ... a 200 damage devastate is the same threat as a sunder. more than 200 = more threat.
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
Maybe our shaman are just slow, but I've never found tremor totem to be useful as anything more than a safety net for this fight.
your shamen arent slow, their totems are... it pulses the fear cleansing effect, it doesnt just gobble it up like a grounding totem. unless youre in a situation where fear is more often than every thirty seconds, or its an unpredictable instant cast, tremor totems arent reliable as a fear break. its very possible to be feared out of totem range before it manages to pulse.
btw, telling a shaman he is slow on his totems is probably a good way to piss them off and be wrong at the same time . that totem was probably happily sitting at your feet well before the fear went off. apart from that, there is nothing they can do for ya.
(other nightbane fear stuff)
not to assist in the derailment of the thread, but sometimes tanking IS about having a fast trigger finger. apart from the occasional brainfart where im not paying close enough attention and dont get inot zerker stance at all, i have never, ever, EVER had someone get killed as a result of a split second between fear and rage. i dont think his fear is a aggro reduction -- the INSTANT you hit rage he is back on you. if it is a reduction, it must be a tiny one; ive never lost him to it.
i can see a problem in breaking the fear fast enough if you are rocking a 500ms ping... i dont know what to say about that, except im very happy to be on a newer server away from the old stonemaul lagfest raids.
on the other hand, im usually in a group with 2 warriors; and the second one is keeping aggro high and breaking the fears as well. that could be the buffer keeping nightbane from tearing loose.
I know this whole thing is a little off topic, but stance dancing fears goes way back to onyxia days and seems to be a common theme, it's a good thing to have down pat.
I used to stance dance fears manually, but it's so much easier to do so with a macro. I found mine on the WoW forums, one of few decent bits of information I got out of there:
First click switches you to berserker, second hits berserker rage, third switches you to defensive if you have a shield on or battle if you don't. I actually have the macro bound to a "turbo" button on my nostromo, so I just hold it down until I switch back to defensive stance. I don't worry about the gcd and it works every time, except when I fat-finger the button or am just not awake yet and completely miss the ground-shake fear warning. I believe the shaman in the raid has a tremor down as well, but that's more for breaking the healer's fears if they don't range it. If you are clicking manually and he fears you for a second before you break it, I can confirm that he makes a beeline at like %400 percent run speed toward your biggest healer. If you're lucky, you can catch up to him, whack him in the face, and rotate him so he's not breathing on anyone. He's a pain in the ass to actually reposition, so the best thing in this scenario would be to have the rest of your raid reposition a bit further along the balcony.
The fights a bit nerve-wracking at first, but a little practice and you're golden. Oh, and if everything goes to shit and you get feared in defensive stance, just hit WotF.
A bit of thread necromancy here, but I haven't been able to find an answer and it's basically on topic:
What's the threat cycle (particularly for off-spec warriors) on off tank duty? I'm thinking of examples like Moroes, where you need to stay second on the aggro table and may or may not - depending on raid composition - be off tanking an add (i.e. potential rage issues).
Whenever I do Moroes it's as offtank and it's ridiculously easy to stay second on the aggro list. I know warriors have more difficulty, and presumably not every Karazhan group uses a feral druid, so I'm interested to know how people handle it. I suppose Gruul would be similar, though I've never seen that fight (and I'm not sure anyone's using a non-prot warrior for hurtful strike).
I know warriors have more difficulty, and presumably not every Karazhan group uses a feral druid, so I'm interested to know how people handle it.
Since you first kill Moroes' adds in that encounter, it's not that hard to build threat on him by including him in TC's and cleaves while you're tanking his adds and the raid dps' threat is on them aswel. That way you've already built up quite a bit of threat by the time the raid switches to him.
Anyway..
If it's strictly about staying second-in-threat on a mob, I just do DW Dev/HS spam on it in defensive stance.
If the purpose of staying second in threat is to take over for a MT death, I wear full protection gear and throw on as many dps consumables as I can. It's usually doable to stay 2nd that way if your DPS aren't huge threatmonsters.
If the purpose of staying second in threat is to be a safety net for the MT getting feared or otherwise taken out of action temporarily, I put gear on that strikes the best balance between DPS and the level of protection needed for the window in which I might take damage on the fight.
Everything about it is a case of mixing and matching gear to the occasion, judging the encounter's danger level and judging your raid's attributes.
Since you first kill Moroes' adds in that encounter
Really? Gosh. That's, er, not what we do.
I don't to make the question Moroes specific though (although that was the genesis of it). I was just more curious generally. DW heroic strike (not prot, remember, so no devastate) doesn't feel like great threat generation to me since you're eating up white damage that would generate rage. And when the boss turns to you (e.g. gouge on Moroes) do you switch a shield in? Seems like you're risking a pretty big spike if you're not on the ball.
I don't to make the question Moroes specific though (although that was the genesis of it). I was just more curious generally. DW heroic strike (not prot, remember, so no devastate) doesn't feel like great threat generation to me since you're eating up white damage that would generate rage. And when the boss turns to you (e.g. gouge on Moroes) do you switch a shield in? Seems like you're risking a pretty big spike if you're not on the ball.
Well even aside from group composition changing each situation, everyone has their own way I guess
Anyway, when you're in some dps gear and especially when you're DW'ing, your rage income will be sufficient to spam dev (or in this case just replace it with sunder, only thing that changes is purely your dps, which isn't that relevant in this situation) every GCD and then you can just mix in as many heroics as you feel comfortable with. Even in full dps gear, a decent warrior should have well over 10khp buffed and enough armor to not get hurt for more than that before you can switch to a shield and have healers react. If really needed, you can also eat a stone, pot or cooldown.
04/17/07, 11:27 PM
. that totem was probably happily sitting at your feet well before the fear went off. apart from that, there is nothing they can do for ya.
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