[Warrior] Threat gen tips - Page 6

Rand · 04/26/07, 6:10 PM

Whenever I do Moroes it's as offtank and it's ridiculously easy to stay second on the aggro list. I know warriors have more difficulty, and presumably not every Karazhan group uses a feral druid, so I'm interested to know how people handle it. I suppose Gruul would be similar, though I've never seen that fight (and I'm not sure anyone's using a non-prot warrior for hurtful strike).

Our OT warrior on Moroes is pure dps/pvp spec (ie. no points in prot besides TM) so he does have a difficult time staying 2nd on hate sometimes, even after getting a huge head start while dps deals with adds. But as soon as I get gouged (being the MT) I turn off my autoattack so it stays on him after the gouge breaks. He then has sufficient rage to build up a significant margin. Moroes will only come back to me if a) I perform any threat causing ability or b) when he vanishes he automatically goes back to the highest person on his hate list (me). If the MT gets garroted though it's a little more difficult.

Dynalisia · 04/26/07, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rand

Our OT warrior on Moroes is pure dps/pvp spec (ie. no points in prot besides TM) so he does have a difficult time staying 2nd on hate sometimes, even after getting a huge head start while dps deals with adds. So as soon as I get gouged (being the MT) I turn off my autoattack so it stays on him after the gouge breaks. He then has sufficient rage to build up a significant margin. Moroes will only come back to me if a) I perform any threat causing ability or b) when he vanishes he automatically goes back to the highest person on his hate list (me). If the MT gets garroted though it's a little more difficult.

Is he trying to build aggro with 1h/shield while in his tanking gear or something? If he has a dps spec and any decent gear, he can just go full out on Moroes from the start and with such a headstart nobody else should even come close to him.

Rand · 04/26/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

Is he trying to build aggro with 1h/shield while in his tanking gear or something?

Yes, we prefer not to take chances with him wearing dps gear when I get gouged. Works fine for us. As long as I get gouged at least once during the fight, dps doesn't have to hold back.

Norwest · 05/14/07, 1:53 PM

A bit of shameless forum necromancy here.

I had an idea, and I'm wondering if it's viable. Stacking sunders up to 5 takes some time for a MT. It hurts total threat and DPS at the start. Would it be possible for a second warrior to stack up 5 sunders and have the MT use devastate on the other warrior's sunders? The second warrior would have some extra threat, but the MT would start the fight with more aggro.

Apologies if this was covered, I skimmed the thread and didn't see anything.

Cel · 05/14/07, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Norwest

A bit of shameless forum necromancy here.

I had an idea, and I'm wondering if it's viable. Stacking sunders up to 5 takes some time for a MT. It hurts total threat and DPS at the start. Would it be possible for a second warrior to stack up 5 sunders and have the MT use devastate on the other warrior's sunders? The second warrior would have some extra threat, but the MT would start the fight with more aggro.

Apologies if this was covered, I skimmed the thread and didn't see anything.

Basically the MT wouldn't have to use his rage to stack the sunders to begin with? I suppose a shield slam + a heroic or two would be enough to out aggro the sunders from the second warrior.

It might work, but I suppose I don't see how much it would help in the long run, as by the time 5 sunders are stacked, usually the MT has enough aggro such that I, as a rogue, won't have to worry about catching up. (assuming it's not a fight like Morogrim with threat nerfing on the MT) During the 5 sunders being stacked, wouldn't the MT's threat be lower overall since he's saving rage to unload Devastates when 5 sunders are up, or would he be devastating while the stack is building up?

Northerner · 05/14/07, 2:11 PM

It's pretty common to use an offtank as a sunder/Demo/Tclap bitch actually. From what I've seen of our own, they preferred to do a sslam/revenge/single sunder (finishes the stack) and then into a devastate/sslam/revenge cycle. I guess it depends on how much they like to devastate overall but I've certainly never seen issues with the offtank being too high in threat because of the early sunders. Heck, with some warriors it is probably less threat than if they were doing dps at a typical rate. =) Besides, it keeps the offtank warrior in step for when the druid(s) tank a target and are begging for sunder love.

GCDs are awfully precious things during a fresh aggro period and anything you can do to give your MT more threat cannot be bad.

Merple · 05/17/07, 2:40 PM

What's the best tank group in terms of threat gen?

MT
Druid OT (LotP)
Fury Warrior (Imp clap/BS)
Shaman (WF/SoE)
Hunter (TSA/ImpHM)

Somewhere in the raid have a paladin with imp BoM?

nfw · 05/17/07, 2:49 PM

At which point does devestate overtake improved TC for threat, assuming rage isn't an issue.

Improved TC:

123 * 2 * 1.75 * 0.9 = 387

Devestate:

100 + damage: needs to do 287 damage to surpass improved TC.

Furthermore, devestate should crit more often than TC; but it's also more prone to being avoided.

Now that I think about it, TC suffers greatly from mob's mitigation, while devestate much less so. So perhaps it's not as close as I thought.

stampy · 05/17/07, 3:08 PM

The MT should be doing their own improved thunderclap. Improved thunderclap generates enough threat to be a good use of a global cooldown, and is rage efficient to boot. The only argument against it is whether or not the MT wants to put those extra 3 points into the arms tree.

Unlike thunderclap, demo shout is a wasted cooldown threat-wise. Its better to let another warrior keep the shout up... and in fact, if that other warrior is DPSing, they will probably be much happier to demo shout than clap -- less rage and works in zerker. From a DPS warrior's perspective, thunderclap is a pain because they have to get out of zerker.

If the MT just cant manage to squeeze the 3 points into improved thunderclap, I have to assume they have imp demo shout. I would suggest getting rid of it, buying yourself something nice with the extra two points, and wheedling a buddy into taking imp demo shout.

Nijel · 08/11/08, 8:22 PM

I've been reading many tanking threads on this board, and they are excellent. However, there are a couple of areas where I want to contribute and hopefully provide a different take on the topic of managing threat. Primarily, the factor of Time.

There seems to be an overwhelming amount of posters with advice that essential nerfs dps'ers potential. The dps I know are fiends for it, always trying to top the damage charts, and thats a good thing. Good DPS aren't trying to pull aggro to see if they can, but it can often occur as a side effect of this tendency. (Although it often appears that they are competing with you for it.) Aggro is a very bad thing for dps because it limits their damage output, and they know that (if they're any good). So like a good hunter who displaces his threat by popping Misdirect as often as possible, there is quite a bit to be said for a tank that can generate enough rage to cover maximum dps output.

And what does that buy you? Time. Whether you're going for ZA chest runs or simply trying to fly through trash in a 3 hour raid, more threat = more dps = faster kills = more boss attempts = progression. Therefore by the commutative property:

More Threat = Progression.

How's that for an equation?

Then of course you have a diametrically opposite progression with warrior tank gear upgrades which may actually nerf your rage generation through better mitigation and avoidance. GG, Blizz. Us warrior tanks have to get creative in order to not only be a good meat shield, but to have on-demand avoidance, and high tps.

When you're rolling with well geared folks (900+ dps, 2K+ heals), as many are these days, and you're tanking gear is T4 or higher, holding threat seems to be the toughest part of the runs. When I started tanking heroics and T4 stuff, I prized dodge as a primary stat next to stam. It's relatively cheap, its sexy, and hey, its nice to be able to solo level 70 random world elites (and spend 10 minutes on phat lewtz like [Moldy Leather Pants]). But as I've become more experienced in raids, I've learned that avoidance isn't what warrior tanking is about. You should be getting hit, often and hard, so that you can continue to spam heroic strikes in the midst of the optimum threat cycle (SS,Rev,Dev,Dev) and maximize your tps. And the proof is simple: Shield Block. Gentlemen, if you are spamming shield block, (as you well should in boss fights) you have pretty much 55+% chance to block every hit. And if you're using Recount detailed incoming damage, a blocked attack that hurts you is still considered a "hit." (Only if you completely block an attack does it show up in the block%)

So now what? Adjust your spec, tweak your gear, and evaluate your detailed outgoing and incoming fight statistics from addons like Recount.

Spec:
2 points in imp taunt
I know this is a sore point for a lot of tanks, but I've found it quite useful for stealing max threat from high dpsers. The shorter cd allows me to spam it now instead of saving it for emergencies.

3 points in imp hs
Makes it as cheap as devastate with imp sunder and focused rage. Very nice threat boost.

1 or 0 points in imp tc
Yea yea I know this one goes against what most think. Here's the reason: adding one point adds an additional 4% slowing effect, but the second and third points only add 3%. Let him hit you 10% slower instead of 20% slower, it generates more rage and still gives you a little room for shield block cds. Also, healers don't like to be first in the over-heals charts anyways. You let them do their job and you do your job: holding the mob. Doesn't matter anyways, I hardly use it or demo shout. Most of the time, in rage-critical situations, I find that i can't waste even a single gcd (nor rage point) on a low threat ability.

Gear:
Try to stack block value, expertise, and hit rating gear. Nothing linked here requires 25 man raids nor luck.

[Item not found!]
I got some very good advice from an experienced T6 tank regarding this one. He firmly believes in the Gnome Autoblocker as not only a very nice tps bonus but also as a mitigation item. With this baby on you can SS for 800-1k and crit for almost 2k (if proc used).

[Amani Mask of Death]
Mad hit rating, strength, stam, and armor, and 3 gem slots to boot. No avoidance. Looks awesome. This is nice if your lacking hit rating but if you are using a tier helmet, you should socket that 10% SBV bonus meta gem.

[Brooch of Deftness] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve]
Nice stam, expertise and hit rating. No avoidance.

[Girdle of the Fearless]
Again, tons of stam and armor to take those hits, plenty of def, hit, and expertise. Very little avoidance.

[Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx]
You get the idea...

Evaluation:
Take a look at your outgoing and incoming detailed damage statistics. Go get Recount. Now. Click your name in the damage chart and then the little magnifying glass icon above the pie chart. I used to try for 40% incoming hits, but honestly 50% is even better (and more likely if you're using shield block often). Outgoing-wise, you should have 0% dodged fairly easily with some expertise gear. Nearly 0% parry if possible, though it takes significantly more expertise. I'm fairly satisfied at 32 expertise rating with 0% dodge and 2-5% parry on bosses (and 0-1% parry on trash). BTW, I don't think the character sheet stats on expertise are accurate for a warrior since they don't increase visibly with defensive stance and 3/3 Defiance. With 86 hit rating and +20 hit rating food, (total 106) I usually miss 1-2% on trash and up to 4-6% miss on bosses. Usually accounts for 10% missed/parried attacks on bosses total and 1-3% miss/parried attacks on trash. I certainly would like to get this number down, but at the cost of other stats its a tough call when boss fights are not nearly as volatile, lengthy (total raid time-wise), nor rage-starved as trash. Certainly a missed attack doesn't help threat very much and costs rage. But by using evaluating these numbers I know now what I need to work on specifically and another goal to reach. Continue to improve and re-evaluate.

The Payoff
1000-1300 sustained tps. Should be enough to cover threat for even the most unruly and vicious mage/dpser.

Hope you thought the post was worth the time. =)

Nijel,
Guildless

Tyvi · 08/11/08, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nijel

But as I've become more experienced in raids, I've learned that avoidance isn't what warrior tanking is about. You should be getting hit, often and hard, so that you can continue to spam heroic strikes in the midst of the optimum threat cycle (SS,Rev,Dev,Dev) and maximize your tps. And the proof is simple: Shield Block. Gentlemen, if you are spamming shield block, (as you well should in boss fights) you have pretty much 55+% chance to block every hit. And if you're using Recount detailed incoming damage, a blocked attack that hurts you is still considered a "hit." (Only if you completely block an attack does it show up in the block%)

I don't get this part. What exactly do you mean to say? A partial blocked swing is a partially blocked swing and awards rage accordingly to the damage received. A 5000 damage hit will give you just as much rage than a 5500 damage swing where you blocked 500 (let's ignore Shield Spec here).

Originally Posted by Nijel

1 or 0 points in imp tc
Yea yea I know this one goes against what most think. Here's the reason: adding one point adds an additional 4% slowing effect, but the second and third points only add 3%. Let him hit you 10% slower instead of 20% slower, it generates more rage and still gives you a little room for shield block cds. Also, healers don't like to be first in the over-heals charts anyways. You let them do their job and you do your job: holding the mob. Doesn't matter anyways, I hardly use it or demo shout. Most of the time, in rage-critical situations, I find that i can't waste even a single gcd (nor rage point) on a low threat ability.

Terrible idea. Not speccing imp TC just because want to get hit harder and because healers don't want to be on the over-heal charts (is this meant to be taken seriously?) is nothing I would recommend to any tank. If you want to get hit hard, then don't TC or don't Shield Block on a crushing mob whenever you are a low on rage. Atleast that way you can control when you take enough damage and when not. By not speccing imp TC you just remove one of your control tools.

Also, 3/3 imp HS doesn't cost as much as Devastate. It will also consume the rage of your autoattack so it's alot worse than Devastate.

Originally Posted by Nijel

Gear:
Try to stack block value, expertise, and hit rating gear. Nothing linked here requires 25 man raids nor luck.

[Item not found!]
I got some very good advice from an experienced T6 tank regarding this one. He firmly believes in the Gnome Autoblocker as not only a very nice tps bonus but also as a mitigation item. With this baby on you can SS for 800-1k and crit for almost 2k (if proc used).

[Amani Mask of Death]
Mad hit rating, strength, stam, and armor, and 3 gem slots to boot. No avoidance. Looks awesome. This is nice if your lacking hit rating but if you are using a tier helmet, you should socket that 10% SBV bonus meta gem.

[Brooch of Deftness] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve]
Nice stam, expertise and hit rating. No avoidance.

[Girdle of the Fearless]
Again, tons of stam and armor to take those hits, plenty of def, hit, and expertise. Very little avoidance.

[Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx]
You get the idea...

Should definitely add [Shard of Contempt] in that list. Also, recommending a pure DPS item ([Amani Mask of Death]) for threat strikes me as a little bit odd but I guess it works if you overgear the content by alot and even then there are better alternatives.

PS: Don't sign your posts on these forums or the mods will poke you around with their infraction stick. :P