Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04/30/07, 12:24 PM   #51
Backpain
Von Kaiser
 
Backpain's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Misha
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I would also note that Icon of Unyielding Courage is competitive with Abacus long-term.
Has its use ability been modeled yet? It has gobs of +hit, and the use looks like it could be valuable in conjunction with other -armor items. With armor penetration stats being added onto gear, my interest is certainly piqued.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 1:16 PM   #52
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Gristle View Post
While there is lots of useful information in this thread around what the +hit cap could be, I believe the OP asked the question of how much +hit is overkill?

Overkill in this sense I assume means 'at the point where +hit items could be replaced by AP/+crit% items to boost total dps'. While its interesting that its possible to reach a +hit cap, this does not necessarily mean this would be the best way to go for a raid-spec fury warrior?

I am in the same position at the moment in my guild, we are shortly to commence SSC and I am Fury spec, hoping to be able to hold my own vs rogues to grab a regular spot in the dps melee.

Like the OP, I'd like to know how much +hit would be 'sufficient' or 'very good', because while I'm sure its possible to get to the +hit cap, I remain unconvinced that this would be a better route to go than aiming for (an arbitary amount) of +12% or +15% vs lvl 73 mobs, 30% crit rate then as much AP as you can possibly stack.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Please be gentle, long time reader, 1st time poster!
The thing is, there's no real "magic number" for hit - it's all about tradeoffs. More hit is going to continue to increase your damage until you reach the aforementioned hit cap. AP and Crit also increase your damage. More of any damage stat is going to boost your DPS - hence, what it comes down to is how much hit we're talking versus how much AP or crit. If it's a choice between getting an extra 5 hit rating or an extra 50 AP, the 50 AP is going to be better. If it's a choice between getting an extra 5 hit rating or 1 AP, the hit rating is going to be better.

Thus, the correct mindset is not "I need to have at least X% hit, and then I'll stack AP and crit" - instead, the question to be asking is "given my current gear, how much is hit rating 'worth', in terms of damage output, relative to AP and crit?" Once you know that conversion factor, you can assess which piece of gear is going to give you the most benefit.

Now, admittedly, deriving that conversion is somewhat tricky; this is why so much time and effort goes into developing good spreadsheets to model the situation. I know the rogue spreadsheet has a section where it specifically computes the relative value of each stat; it would not surprise me to find out that the other class spreadsheets do as well.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 2:29 PM   #53
Lupison
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn
Is a bear a 2h? and is a cat a 1h, 2h, or duel? anyone know?

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 2:33 PM   #54
dawgg
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Ysera
Pre-bc, deathwing's spreadsheet could cut through all the "opinions" and get you to the answer about relative value pretty quickly. That's not the case anymore, so there seems to be lots of guessing. Hopefully the new spreadsheets will be in a place to give some conclusive answers shortly, particularly becuase before gems, which item was "best" was usually pretty obvious.

It would seem that hit has a certain relative value up to 8%, and a very different value post 8%. The logic is this - hit helps white dmg/rage and specials up to 8%, and after that, it helps white dmg/rage only. Assuming a 50%-ish split, doesn't the value of hit get halved from 9% onwards? Logic flaw?

Last edited by dawgg : 04/30/07 at 2:33 PM. Reason: /rage

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 2:39 PM   #55
Disquette
doop doop de doooo
 
Disquette's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by dawgg View Post
Assuming a 50%-ish split, doesn't the value of hit get halved from 9% onwards? Logic flaw?
depends on factors such as procs.

I know you're not a rogue, but hit means more than just "additional white damage" because +hit beyond the 8% level helps with poisons, combat potency, and mongoose if they have it offhand.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6766?page=3#41
Let me map a priority list out for you so that you can refer to it in the future:
1. Money 2. Money 3. PvE 4. Mages 5. Companion pets 6. PvP

United States Offline
Old 04/30/07, 2:42 PM   #56
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by dawgg View Post
Pre-bc, deathwing's spreadsheet could cut through all the "opinions" and get you to the answer about relative value pretty quickly. That's not the case anymore, so there seems to be lots of guessing. Hopefully the new spreadsheets will be in a place to give some conclusive answers shortly, particularly becuase before gems, which item was "best" was usually pretty obvious.

It would seem that hit has a certain relative value up to 8%, and a very different value post 8%. The logic is this - hit helps white dmg/rage and specials up to 8%, and after that, it helps white dmg/rage only. Assuming a 50%-ish split, doesn't the value of hit get halved from 9% onwards? Logic flaw?
Possibly for warriors. For combat rogues it's hard *not* to get to the yellow attack miss number, which is why I didn't mention that. In particular, for rogues, you absolutely want to get that number (but you almost always will)... but after that, hit remains very very good all the way to the hit cap. Hence, that's something to keep in mind in terms of "how much hit% is not enough" although not so relevant to "how much hit% is too much"

Also, I'd note, missing a yellow attack doesn't always cost you the full amount of damage, since the energy/rage cost of a miss is (in most cases) lower than if the attack is successful, so the damage differential might not be quite as large as you'd expect.

Offline
Old 04/30/07, 3:10 PM   #57
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstorm
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Lupison View Post
Is a bear a 2h? and is a cat a 1h, 2h, or duel? anyone know?
Basically it is acts like a 2H weapon for bear, cat and moonkin (melee for mana) forms.

United States Offline
Old 05/01/07, 5:55 AM   #58
gakutomagnum
Glass Joe
 
Human Priest
 
Skullcrusher
I'm skeptical about going towards the hit% cap.

Now I know the spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate, I did some comparisons of my gear vs hit capped selection of gear and it shows a very small dps difference. Perhaps the Netherblade 2pc skews things a lot.

I'm currently 4/5 Netherblade and I've found a liking to the 2pc and 4pc set bonuses: I feel like I'm getting a lot more damage out of everything but I haven't ran any sort of testing with Recap or whatever so I won't say too much. All the extra hit rating past 6% is just a boost to your white damage and no significance to yellow damage. So perhaps my ratio of yellow:white damage is a lot higher like 60%/40% while people with more hit rating will see more skewed results of 40%/60%.

Offline
Old 05/02/07, 3:59 AM   #59
Qrmu
Von Kaiser
 
Qrmu's Avatar
 
Orc Warrior
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Lupison View Post
Is a bear a 2h? and is a cat a 1h, 2h, or duel? anyone know?
Basically there are 2 types of melee in terms of hit: single weapon and dual weapon. Only warriors, rogues, hunters and shaman can even get dual weapons. So druid is single weapon, always.

The difference between 1h and 2h is in normalized instant attack multipliers, which cats and bears don't have.

Offline
 

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics

Thread Tools