Resto Shamans in raids, pain or pure bliss? - Page 2

Myul · 04/08/07, 12:33 AM

6mp5 per talent point vs 1% maxmana. In my opinion it's the better filler AND it will reduce the amount of mana for your longer cooldown totems significantly.

Fire Elemental Totem -170 mana
Earth Elemental Totem -176 mana

You need some extra aoe burst for illhoff?
Fire Nova Totem -191 mana
Magma Totem -200 mana

comparing 0/5 vs 5/5 'totemic focus'.

You have to refresh your common totems?

For melee dps
205 searing totem
310 grace of air
300 strength of earth
120 manaspring

935 mana in total or saving 234. At any encounter over 4 minutes (even a lot of trashmobs may take this time), 'totemic focus' will beat 'ancestral knowledge'.

And you may have to move, drop different totems for different situations (antifear, poison dispell, heavy fire/ice aoe) and switch back for more benefit to your group during the time they are not needed.

♦ Oggie · 04/08/07, 1:43 AM

Well, I'm effectively no longer raiding on my shaman, and the vast majority of my experince has been at 60, but I think I have a little bit of knowledge to impart.

First off, get to love downranked HW. 1 second for raid healing is 'rarely' going to make a difference, so it's just a matter of training yourself (and having faith in other healers enough) to wait that 1 second. I'm not familar with the fights you're doing, so maybe that LHW _IS_ vital, but I don't see that. In addition, if it's that vital to spot people up CHing your way to glory is better efficency and hp/sec (accross multiple targets, of course)- if the raid is grouped and there's even a 50/50 chance you'll get both bounces to needy targets I wouldn't even blink making that decision.

Using rank 1 HW to keep healing way up on the tank is good, but frankly I'd probably pull out a fairly downranked one (4? 5?) and use that instead- more time out of the 5sr, maybe it'll overheal but it's not like it's a huge hit to anything but GCD. Then again, a talented r1 HW is a trivial casttime so you suffer less. Suit to self,b ut -never- let that HW stack drop if you can help it while single target healing- very important.

Mana/5- Yes. you ned more. It sucks hard. Sorry. Shaman rock at hp/sec, crits, small scale aoe healing, and passive healing (ES and HS), but they fall down like rocks when it comes to efficency. Consider grabbing the totem of -15 mana from LB and chain casting rank 1 while sitting around doing nothing (assuming JoW on the mob)- free cast, can proc JoW, doesn't break 5sr. Your +healing is great, but mana/5 is what I've always found saves us in the end.

For the above group, I personally would never ask. They get GoA and if they want to bitch, thats' fine, but 4 people being helped is just going to be more dps than 3 people getting helped (except at extreme cases) when the 3 will also benifit from GoA- if not as much. Everyone knows what totem is best for them personally and will ask for it- religiously- at every opportunity, and in this case (as in most actually) people tend to err on thier own desires. Best rule of thumb is helping more is always better, unless you have a warrior, in which case WF> all (leaving aside special cases for Warrio, hunterx3 and the like).

Lasty, on group selection. For a resto shaman, you really are best placed with the Sprirest.....unless the spriest is with the hunters. The synergy of VT + WoA is extremely nice, plus a nice bonus to your healing, and the casters in group get VT, VE and WoA- very happy casters. If the hunters bitch, you could be swapped to thier group for your Tide cooldown (probably not the most efficent use of resources, but an idea anyway). A melee dps group would be 2nd, or possibly the MT group if the MT is having ANY aggro/rage issues.

Hope any of this helps!

Ashiya · 04/08/07, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Oggie

First off, get to love downranked HW. 1 second for raid healing is 'rarely' going to make a difference, so it's just a matter of training yourself (and having faith in other healers enough) to wait that 1 second. I'm not familar with the fights you're doing, so maybe that LHW _IS_ vital, but I don't see that. In addition, if it's that vital to spot people up CHing your way to glory is better efficency and hp/sec (accross multiple targets, of course)- if the raid is grouped and there's even a 50/50 chance you'll get both bounces to needy targets I wouldn't even blink making that decision.

Using rank 1 HW to keep healing way up on the tank is good, but frankly I'd probably pull out a fairly downranked one (4? 5?) and use that instead- more time out of the 5sr, maybe it'll overheal but it's not like it's a huge hit to anything but GCD. Then again, a talented r1 HW is a trivial casttime so you suffer less. Suit to self,b ut -never- let that HW stack drop if you can help it while single target healing- very important.

Well, I'm not too sure if you were around when downranking was nerfed, so whereas it used to be a very viable strategy (heck I used to heal on my priest with Heal Rank 2) it's not as viable anymore. I'll put some more Healing Wave ranks on my bar next raid and use it, to see the difference. Thanks for the suggestions anyway.

Also as for getting more mp5 - It's a bitch, since I just can't find any items which have more mp5 on them. Gloves of Centering from Maiden have dropped once ever since I've hit 70 and that was when I was sitting out. I suppose I could change my bracer enchant to mp5, but I don't think anyone I know can do that one :|.

Nitz · 04/08/07, 11:52 AM

Downranking is still efficient. Not as much as before (which I found quite normal with the +healing values we have post-BC) but it is. I'm currently using rank 12, 9 and 8 (on Malchezaar until 60%, or raid healing sometimes), 9 is my main rank and I heal for approximatively 3.3k on a target buffed with Healing Way 3 and my gear is a bit below yours.

Bor · 04/09/07, 9:46 AM

Does anyone else think one shaman in a twenty five man raid would be best placed in the main tank group? For added threat generation for warriors through windfury and added dodge and crit for druids through grace of air.

We generally have a druid as the main tank and put a warlock and warrior in his group for imp/shout, then a tree druid for the healing buff and a shaman for grace of air.

I've got no idea how useful bloodlust would be for threat generation as well on any flavour of tank.

Coriolis · 04/09/07, 11:16 AM

Try getting Dr.Damage and compare your HPM to your priests HPM. Now throw in healing way. You may be pleasantly surprised. At same level of gear, with a healing way full stack, my hpm is actually higher then a 23/38 specced holy priest (or so they tell me, I'm sitting at about 6.8-6.9 hpm atm with about 1300 healing). Now it is true that my mana regen cannot compare (meditation, shadowfiend, inherently more from spirit), but shamans really aren't much behind priests. If I throw in the healing done by my ES, I rarely get beaten in effective healing by priests without innervate (or anyone else really). The key is that you have to be used effectively, the things shamans do well as far as I can see are MT healing where you can stack healing way/ancestral fortitude and use only HW, or aoe-type healing where you can use CH. Raid spot healing of random damage is best left to other classes.

As far as downranking, try Dr. Damage (or theorycraft), you'll see that the hpm of most spells with 1200-1300 +healing is pretty similiar ranks 5-12, the main reason to downrank is so you don't overheal and/or proc ancestral fortitude.

saiyajinmaster · 04/09/07, 11:50 AM

Just popping in to say that unless all our spreadsheets and my anecdotal evidence are pretty wrong, Windfury vs GoA for a rogue isn't a wash. Windfury is a good 60 dps higher according to our latest one with my gear payout. Results can vary but even for a dagger rogue it is showing as 40 dps higher on mine. Not the end of the world but still substantial.

Phoe · 04/13/07, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ashiya

I suppose I could change my bracer enchant to mp5, but I don't think anyone I know can do that one :|.

Ask me to do it for you before raid tonight mate :P

As a fellow healer i think that your choice to go for as much mp5 as possible is a good decision, especially considering the upcoming nerfs to the resto flasks/elixirs. I personally will also be leaning towards more mp5 as we progress through SSC and The Eye, rather than my +healing which i find the most favourable stat for a raiding resto druid at the moment.
I've been watching healing meters in raids and watched how you heal on the various videos you made, and to be honest i think you're doing a great job. The quick heals you give from LHW 7 to top up the raid are very much appreciated, and of course who can fault chain heal

Regarding using HW 12 - i think Oggie makes a valuable point: get to love those lower ranks. I still use HT 4 (oh the shock!) in raids when i'm not in ToL form simply because by the time i've put in a larger HT the target is already healed to full. On trash mobs those lower rank heals are very useful even on tank healing - by constantly spamming rank 4 HT on an offtank during, say, a murloc pack in SSC, proves to be
a) extremely mana efficient
b) has much lower chance of being overheals
c) leaves me with enough mana to respond to problems that may arise long after the inital engage i.e some other healers get themselves owned (it happens more than it should -_-) and the raid is in need of more healing.
I'm not sure about the Shaman ranks and the amount of healing your HW 4/5 actually does, but it's worth testing on our next raid i think.
Ofc it does depend who you are healing and in what situation - wouldn't advise this strategy when healing is spread out quite thinly/the mobs hit very hard (oh lord gief SSC trash nerfs soon!). Try it out on Gruul's Lair trash or even on Karazhan trash to get a feel for it perhaps.

As for the totems/grp buffs etc - imo the healers shouldn't rely on your totems except in very special circumstances (i.e treating Hydross like Patchwerk xD). Shadow Priests and Shamans are all very well and good but i believe that healers should rely (and work) on their own mp5 gear/buffs rather than depending on mana totems etc.

I wouldn't want to comment on your place in the raid group however - I dont know enough about melee dps buffs and all that malarky :S

End of the day mate go with what feels comfortable and what seems to be most mana efficient for you - personally how you heal at the moment seems to work very well, although perhaps a bit of tuning is needed for those longer fights? Saving money on mana pots ftw ^^

Rugrud · 04/13/07, 6:59 AM

Is downranking that much mana efficient after the patch nerfing it?
I'm trying to get used to it, and i've added a lower HW rank (6 i think..). It cost me roughly 1/3 of the max rank, but also heal roughly 1/3 of the max rank (~1200 vs ~3600 before healing way).

I find it usefull to have a cheap spell to top people when the situation is under control, but except to avoid overheal in these situations, i'm not convinced it is really mana efficient to spam it?

Is there a better rank to use (i mean am i at a point where the nerf is too big?)?

What am i missing?

Ashiya · 04/13/07, 9:39 AM

That's my thoughts too, although I do use HW 5 to top up people rather than LHW spam now (woo, for mana efficiency) I cannot keep up on single target healing with a heal lower than rank 9. Rank 9 heals for roughly 4k with Healing Way applied and it is enough to keep up with other healers on say Magtheridon. I don't notice too much more mana efficiency doing that so I wonder what is the point.

All of our melee have learned how to stay together now though if they want those pretty pretty chains flying towards them - and man they love it, and ofcourse so do I!

• Chicken · 04/13/07, 10:05 AM

Personally I factor in the mana regenerated while I'm casting a spell as well when it comes to comparing the healing per mana. It's arguable whether or not you should do that though, but it certainly makes downranking look a bit more favorable.

How I do so is basically calculating an 'effective mana cost', which is basically the base cost minus the amount you regenerate during a cast. Mana regeneration basically provides a flat amount of mana cost reduction. I'll show you an entirely fictional example:

Spell A has a 2.5 second cast time, costs 600 mana, and heals 3000 health. Spell B has a 2.5 second cast time, costs 300 mana, and heals 1500 health. Without taking into account regeneration, the two of them are equal healing per mana (To be exact, 5 healing per mana).

Now let's say that in this 2.5 second period that you're casting the spell, you regenerate 50 mana. That gets us an effective mana cost reduction of 50... Now Spell A does 5.45 healing per mana, while Spell B does 6 healing per mana.

The validity of regen while casting for these kind of calculations is something you can have long and very complicated arguments about however.

Rugrud · 04/13/07, 11:53 AM

I must be missing something... Are you saying that because it takes longer to cast two low rank spell, you gain more mana regen during this time???

Because in that case, with spell A, in 5 seconds, you should regen 100 mana while healing 3000, so also 6 heal per mana... (and that's not counting that by casting fewer spell, you can have more regen tick oustside the FSR)...

So no, i still don't really see the point...