Totems and Groups.

jaske · 04/07/07, 11:54 PM

This is for melee specifically.

We face the problem that im sure others have faced with shamans in an alliance raiding guild, which totems are ideal.
Note: we have no fury warriors they are ms.

Our group make ups range from:
Enh shaman,rogue,rogue,rogue, mswarrior/hunter.
to enh shaman,rogue,ms warrior,ms warrior,hunter.

We are always discussing which is better and why, i have never been a spreadsheet person and im not sure how you could use them to work out numbers for a group as a whole. My Class Lead always says agi+poison>windfury(not sure if this is true or not).
Our normal group is Enh Sham, Rogue(swords),Rogue(swords),Rogue(daggers),Hunter/MS Warrior.
From watching DM i can see a huge boost for the ms warrior's dps when he gets windfury. So my question is in this situation and other possible group make ups, is it worth sacrificing agi+poison for rogues and agi for hunters for windfury for rogues/warriors, Hunters are really in a lose lose situation as its hard to cater for them.

Myul · 04/08/07, 12:18 AM

In your case, it's simple:

Enh shaman + rogue + rogue + rogue + mswarrior = wf
battleshout is a huge dps buff, let your warrior do good damage, to.

Enh shaman + rogue + rogue + rogue + hunter = goa
there are only 3 receiving maybe a little more from wf, but they can pick up instant or deadly poison instead and the enhancement shaman will push his damage as also the hunter's one.

Not only the hunter will lose some dps from dropping wf totem, your enhancement shaman will do, to!

My choises are:

rogue rogue feral hunter = goa
rogue rogue rogue warr = wf
rogue rogue feral warr =agi (huge boost to feral dps, your warrior should pick up some +dmg or critstones for this case)

But you may have to look at the encounter as well. In a fight like a gruul, your hunter will stand on a safe spot, while your rogues have to avoid cave ins and run to his back after repositioning, over and over, all the time. That's why i drop then wf for 'em, if there are 3+ in the group. It's only 30y range, in allmost any case it won't be enough for every member of your group.

The dps of gladiator or tier II blacksmith weapons with instant poison and goa are on par with wf for rogues. WF will only really shine for your warriors, for a reason you've allready mentioned.

Harthag · 04/08/07, 2:59 AM

On relatively stationary fights like Gruul you can give them the best of both worlds for the most part. WF totem buffs the main hand weapon for 10 seconds so you can drop WF then right after drop Agi for 8 seconds or so and repeat. Works well enough if you have BoW and cheaper totems. For trash just pick one and go with it pretty much.

Group had Enh, rogue, rogue, rogue, MS.

Warrior was oh so giddy and one of the rogues just got frustrated about losing agi for maybe 2 seconds at a time.

• Shifft · 04/08/07, 3:06 AM

For sinister strike specced rogues windfury is a much bigger DPS increase than GoA+poisons...about 60 buffed DPS better with my gear/spec. For daggers it's closer, but windfury still edges out GoA+poisons by a bit.

missiletoad · 04/08/07, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by jaske

My Class Lead always says agi+poison>windfury(not sure if this is true or not).

Not true, sir. Windfury Totem is a clear winner in rogue/warrior groups. It mostly comes down to WF scaling with gear and GoA not. Cumulative raid dps gets kind of cloudy when a hunter is in there as well, as his and your own dps will be better boosted by GoA. I'm not sure where the balance gets tipped in there in favor of GoA, but more often than not WF Totem will be the way to go.

That's of course also not accounting for a potential use of GoA for mitigation sake or Flametongue Totem for the hell of it. This all smells like a theorycraft spreadsheet waiting to happen.

Boevis · 04/08/07, 5:40 AM

If you're sporting a Feral Druid and a hunter, don't even think of dropping WF, you've got 3/5 of the party not being able to use it.

That being said, a Hunter will actually be best off in a Shaman + Shadow Priest group for mana returns even if the shaman is dropping Wrath or Tranquil totems.

Gonz · 04/08/07, 5:57 AM

I am my guild's enhancement shaman, and I have yet to have a hunter in my group for a boss fight, unless all of the warriors are tanking (i.e. Magtheridon, phase 1). The 100 attack power that the group receives from the hunter is minimal compared to another rogue or a warrior receiving totems and unleashed rage.

That being said, typically my group consists of: enhancement shaman, combat rogue, ms warrior, fury warrior, and either a feral druid or an assassination rogue(trying to get him to go combat!). Windfury is a huge buff for combat rogues and all types of warriors. Even if only three of the members of my group are benefiting from windfury, most of the time it is the better choice. This is not always the case, but being aware of your group make-up and their specs is half the battle when deciding to drop totems.

Skiace · 04/08/07, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by missiletoad

This all smells like a theorycraft spreadsheet waiting to happen.

it's pretty damn messy though, which is why it's not been put into a spreadsheet already, i suspect. you have to account for:

-large variety of possible group combinations
-different rogue and warrior specs
-WF scaling at differing gear levels of everyone in the group

the first is probably fairly easy, assuming you can quantify the other two. the second could possibly be solved by devising a weighting system for each (popular) spec based on the already developed rogue and warrior dps spreadsheets. the third is pretty tough to account for in any meaningful way without plugging everyone's gear into the rogue/warrior spreadsheets.

hell, it's probably easier to just drop WF for one trash pull and GoA for the next, and see which gives the group higher overall dps.

Sebudai · 04/08/07, 3:43 PM

There really are not that many group combinations that get used on a consistent basis. In my raids my group is almost always one of the following two options:

Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior(fury)
Shaman(enhancement)

-or-

Rogue
Rogue
Druid(feral)
Warrior(fury)
Shaman(enhancement)

99% of the time my group looks like one of the above options, and I'm willing to bet it's the same for most raiding shaman. Obviously Windfury Totem is better for the first group, but it's not so clear for the second. I'd like to see someone with a better grasp of math work out the details for each option. Just assume 'cookie cutter' raid specs for each class involved.

• Shifft · 04/08/07, 4:41 PM

Well as I posted before, WF totem gives me 60 DPS over GoA+poisons, and I'd guess closer to 100 for a fury warrior, so if you think yourself and the druid will gain more than 200 DPS total from GoA then that would be better, if not then drop WF.

panny · 04/09/07, 1:27 AM

Originally Posted by Shifft

Well as I posted before, WF totem gives me 60 DPS over GoA+poisons, and I'd guess closer to 100 for a fury warrior, so if you think yourself and the druid will gain more than 200 DPS total from GoA then that would be better, if not then drop WF.

You forget the benefit the Shaman gains from GoA.

So, GoA would need to be about a 220 dps increase from the Shaman and the Feral combined for it to be worth using over WF if your numbers are right.

Xelopheris · 04/09/07, 2:05 AM

GOA AND FLAMETONGUE!

My rule of thumb is 3 people max that will benefit from WF before WF goes down. But once we get to ridiculous levels again, WF's scaling factor will do better than GOA.

(p.s. If you're on a fight where you can't use poisons, might as well drop flametongue if you're dropping GOA)

Soladoras · 04/09/07, 11:48 AM

In regards to kara, with only 10 members my group looks like this:

Warrior (prot)
Warrior (prot)
Rogue (20/41)
Rogue (41/20)
Enhancement Shaman

The two warriors are both prot, but for many boss fights, only one tank is needed, so one of them will throw on his dps gear and "dps" to the best of his ability. Without a Hunter or Feral Druid in the party, I am inclined to ask for WF = SoE over GoA + flametongue (what the shaman is advocating). I can't see any reason to take the GoA + flametongue, other than the additional dodge for the tank. Even then, I am skeptical that that dodge is of enough benefit to lose the dps by dropping everyone else to GoA + flametongue. Thoughts anyone?

Kalman · 04/09/07, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Soladoras

In regards to kara, with only 10 members my group looks like this:

Warrior (prot)
Warrior (prot)
Rogue (20/41)
Rogue (41/20)
Enhancement Shaman

The two warriors are both prot, but for many boss fights, only one tank is needed, so one of them will throw on his dps gear and "dps" to the best of his ability. Without a Hunter or Feral Druid in the party, I am inclined to ask for WF = SoE over GoA + flametongue (what the shaman is advocating). I can't see any reason to take the GoA + flametongue, other than the additional dodge for the tank. Even then, I am skeptical that that dodge is of enough benefit to lose the dps by dropping everyone else to GoA + flametongue. Thoughts anyone?

41/20 typically rogues get more out of GoA than from WF, since they get a comparatively higher benefit from using poisons. Given two prot warriors (even if one is DPSing), a shaman, a mutilate rogue, the only winner with WF is the 20/41 rogue... I'd drop GoA, personally.

Malan · 04/09/07, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Harthag

On relatively stationary fights like Gruul you can give them the best of both worlds for the most part. WF totem buffs the main hand weapon for 10 seconds so you can drop WF then right after drop Agi for 8 seconds or so and repeat.

Psshhh. I'd love to see how you plan to keep the mana costs for that up for the duration of an entire fight.

Also as said on page 1, WF is nearly always the clear winner for rogues and warriors. The GOA bonus is just a flat AP increase for the rogues, and all the warriors get out of GOA is some crit if they're in DPS mode. The WF totem is more rage, scaling dmg (since its wpn dmg + AP) for the warriors, and is still scaling for the rogue.