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-   -   Rogue - Dodge vs. Parry Talents, One Roll Combat Theory, Combat Sword Spec Questions (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t10864-rogue_dodge_vs_parry_talents_one_roll_combat_theory_combat_sword_spec_questions/)

 tok3n 04/09/07 5:29 PM

Rogue - Dodge vs. Parry Talents, One Roll Combat Theory, Combat Sword Spec Questions

As a combat sword rogue spec purely for PvE end game raiding, I always seem to have 2 talent points that I can either put into Lightning Reflexes (+1% Dodge) or Deflection (+1% Parry), so that I end up with 5 Lightning Reflexes / 0 Deflection or 3 Lightning Reflexes / 2 Deflection. I am only considering these in terms of PvE end game raiding and not PvP, although the latter may be the tie breaker if all else is equal.

Originally I had considered putting the points into Lightning Reflexes for more dodge. My reasoning was that, as a rogue, my base dodge is naturally higher than my parry. I was assuming my chance on being hit considering only dodge (d) and parry (p) would be (1-d) x (1-p). In other words when I was attacked, if we only consider dodge and parry, the attack would have to “get through” both in order to hit. Using that logic, it makes sense to stack your points into the one that is higher to begin with. Consider if you have 15% dodge and 10% parry and you are magically given the choice to put 5% into one, the other, or spread it out. If you put it into dodge to get 20% dodge and 10% parry, then the chance of a hit getting through both is (1-0.2) x (1-0.1) = 0.72. If you put it into parry to get 15% dodge and 15% parry, then the chance of a hit getting though both is (1-0.15) x (1-0.15) = 0.7225. Not a huge difference but one nonetheless.

Of course all the previous is irrelevant because it is generally accepted that WoW does its combat on a one roll table format. That being said, it seems that it doesn’t matter where those 2 points go into, assuming dodge and parry have the same functionality (and ignoring PvP factors like Warrior Overpower) because in a one roll table dodge and parry would function independently and not in a combined fashion as I had previous thought above. However, if you consider PvP factors like Warrior Overpower and the fact that when you parry, your next swing delay is reduced, the facts seem to favor parry over dodge.

1. Between Lightning Reflexes (+1% Dodge) or Deflection (+1% Parry), where would you put those 2 points? Please only consider PvP factors like Warrior Overpower if all else is equal.

2. Do dodge and parry do the exact same thing? Both completely avoid a melee attack and do not work against physical ranged attacks / spells?

3. Consider a typical combat table:

Miss 5%
Dodge 15%
Parry 10%
Glancing Blow 0%
Block 0%
Critical Hit 5%
Crushing Blow 0%
Normal Hit 65%

According to WoWWiki and these forums, an attack against you goes in that order so that it first checks Miss, then Dodge, then Parry, and so forth. But that confuses me because that seems to imply multiple rolls. And then, contrary to that but in line with single roll theory, it says that if some percents add up to be 100% or greater, all possibilities below that drop off, go to zero percent. But that begs the question: why even have a set order in which things are checked? Or is it simply that you need an order because that is what determines what gets dropped off to zero percent when the values preceding it add up to 100% or greater? (I probably answered my own question.)

4. This is a bit off topic but right now my spec is:

Assassination (19): 3 Improved Eviscerate, 5 Malice, 2 Murder, 1 Relentless Strikes, 5 Lethality, 3 Ruthlessness (60% chance on finishing move to get a combo point, or am I having a brain fart)

Combat (42): 2 Improved Sinister Strike, 5 Lightning Reflexes, 5 Precision, 3 Improved Slice and Dice, 5 Dual Wield Specialization, 5 Sword Specialization, 1 Blade Flurry, 2 Weapon Expertise, 3 Aggression, 1 Adrenaline Rush, 2 Vitality, 2 Nerves of Steel, 5 Combat Potency, 1 Surprise attacks

I first take 1 Nerves of Steel in order to get to 35 points in combat so I can get Combat Potency and Surprise Attacks. Does anyone think there is a better place to put that point? Again this is solely for PvE end game raid.

Secondly, when it comes down to my past 4 talent points, I put 3 into Ruthlessness and the last point into Nerves of Steel. But I question that last point. Maybe it could go into Blade Twisting so Warrior Heroic Strike hits harder?

Can anyone suggest an optimal spec for combat swords for purely PvE end game raiding? I think I am pretty close to where I want it.

 Bluefish 04/09/07 5:42 PM

Parry speeds your mainhand swing timer -- I don't know the exact amount, but I've heard 40% bandied around. Any difference in actual amount of mitigation for 1% Parry vs. 1% Dodge because of the roll table would be trumped by the slight DPS increase of Parrying plus its greater PvP use imo.

 koaschten 04/09/07 6:44 PM

1. I wouldnt spend points on dodge or parry. Because if you have to dodge or parry melee AE in a raid environment you are dead most times anyway if you dont dodge. 2% more doesnt cut it for me. I prefer knowing the encounter and avoiding the chance to kill me totally.

2. Yes

3. Dunno

4. 19/42/0 is considered the best pve specc with swords currently, thats right.
But you should watch where to put your talent points closely.
I would never ever specc Nerves of Steel. It may look like a dps boost not to be stunned or feared, but may aswell get you killed in aoe stun/fear situations where you resist and the tank doesnt. As well i wouldnt specc for dodge/parry (see reasons at 1. ). You are better of putting them in sprint (break root/snare), gouge (short time cc of trashmobs and cast breaker if the rest is on cooldown) and kick for silence effects. And you dont loose dps by doing so and gain pvp viability.

 Tharas 04/09/07 6:55 PM

What Bluefish said re: swing timer is basically what I understand also. The "optimal" to my knowledge is to go 3/5 Lightning Reflex and 2/5 Parry (assuming you are going 2/2 Imp SS in the first tier, 5/5 Precision and 3/3 Imp SnD in the 2nd tier, and trying to bridge to the 4th tier without buying any 3rd-tier talents, pure PvE build - to me Imp Gouge is a PvP or leveling tool, Endurance and Imp Sprint are definitely PvP, and by the time you can pick up Imp Kick as suggested above you have better things to spend points on in the tier).

Also, it's Heroic Strike that benefits from the daze, not Mortal Strike. Not many (any?) bosses can be dazed, to my knowledge. Warriors can self-daze mobs with top-rank Shield Bash to get the same effect on trash, if they want it. I'd probably go for Nerves of Steel to improve your survivability on bosses.

 tok3n 04/09/07 7:20 PM

I guess its time to respec - again!

koaschten: I have considered the possibility of my tank being fear and me standing there with all the agro. Still not sure on where I stand though.

As for an optimal PvE Raid Spec for combat sword rogues, is this accurate then?

Assassination (19): 3 Improved Eviscerate, 5 Malice, 2 Murder, 1 Relentless Strikes, 5 Lethality, 3 Ruthlessness

Combat (42): 2 Improved Sinister Strike, 3 Lightning Reflexes, 2 Deflection, 5 Precision, 3 Improved Slice and Dice, 5 Dual Wield Specialization, 5 Sword Specialization, 1 Blade Flurry, 2 Weapon Expertise, 3 Aggression, 1 Adrenaline Rush, 2 Vitality, 2 Nerves of Steel, 5 Combat Potency, 1 Surprise attacks

I guess the tier one talents are open for debate as koaschten brings up.

Hopefully I get get some more input and opinions - the more the merrier!

 tok3n 04/10/07 4:56 AM

One thing that I've been puting some thought into is whether Improved Eviscerate would be a waste as, at least according to the dps spreadsheet, I would often be using Rupture as a finisher. I wouldn't know where to put those points, however. Possiblity into poisons. Any thoughts?

 koaschten 04/10/07 6:58 AM

well there are quite a few boss mobs that are immune to rupture and poisons. guess its your own decision if you want to boost your dps on "standard" bosses more and perhaps suck a little more on 1 or 2 bosses.
for farming i'd definitly prefer evi over poisons

its kinda a 6 dps increase on mobs you can rupture and have deadly offhand.
considering that we are talking about unbuffed dps around 850+ and that poison talents dont scale with buffs i'd say eviscerate > 3/5 imp or vile poisons

 Boevis 04/10/07 7:45 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tok3n (Post 322104) ks / spells? 3. Consider a typical combat table: Miss 5% Dodge 15% Parry 10% Glancing Blow 0% Block 0% Critical Hit 5% Crushing Blow 0% Normal Hit 65% According to WoWWiki and these forums, an attack against you goes in that order so that it first checks Miss, then Dodge, then Parry, and so forth. But that confuses me because that seems to imply multiple rolls. And then, contrary to that but in line with single roll theory, it says that if some percents add up to be 100% or greater, all possibilities below that drop off, go to zero percent. But that begs the question: why even have a set order in which things are checked? Or is it simply that you need an order because that is what determines what gets dropped off to zero percent when the values preceding it add up to 100% or greater? (I probably answered my own question.)
It's single roll for white attacks, it doesn't "check if it missed before checking dodge before ... " So yes, you answered your own question, though I recall hearing rogues with over 100% dodge through evasion would still parry so that would put parry above dodge on that chart (I may be confusing evasion with shield block though)

 roq 04/10/07 1:28 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by tok3n (Post 322220) koaschten: I have considered the possibility of my tank being fear and me standing there with all the agro. Still not sure on where I stand though.
FYI, in most encounters, if your tank is getting feared you are usually getting feared also. There are very few circumstances i can think of not being feared while the warrior is. But i would suggest not taking Nerves of Steel if you are worried about the fear thing.

 Un 04/10/07 3:23 PM

This might be slightly off topic, but isn't there evidence floating around somewhere that the murder talent also increases dmg taken to the player from species that murder increases dmg againt? I just noticed the talent in tok3n's spec, and I don't know if this reverse dmg effect on Murder has been verified, but if it's true I guess it raises the question as to whether a rogue would want the lesser dps increase from Imp. Poisons instead.

 Viper 04/10/07 3:35 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Un (Post 323040) This might be slightly off topic, but isn't there evidence floating around somewhere that the murder talent also increases dmg taken to the player from species that murder increases dmg againt? I just noticed the talent in tok3n's spec, and I don't know if this reverse dmg effect on Murder has been verified, but if it's true I guess it raises the question as to whether a rogue would want the lesser dps increase from Imp. Poisons instead.
That was just someone miscorrectly interpreting what was going on. They used some item that does damage to yourself, and in that case Murder applies because the damage you're doing is to a humanoid-- yourself.

 Un 04/10/07 3:51 PM

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for muddying the waters.

 sp00n 04/11/07 8:52 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Boevis (Post 322543) It's single roll for white attacks, it doesn't "check if it missed before checking dodge before ... " So yes, you answered your own question, though I recall hearing rogues with over 100% dodge through evasion would still parry so that would put parry above dodge on that chart (I may be confusing evasion with shield block though)
Yes, parry is taking priority over dodge.
1. Miss
2. Parry
3. Dodge
(Glancing)
4. Crit
5. Hit

I don't know exactly about block and crushing (being a rogue, I'm more concentrating on DPS issues ;)) but I suppose they're ranked above crit, in that order.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Viper (Post 323054) That was just someone miscorrectly interpreting what was going on. They used some item that does damage to yourself, and in that case Murder applies because the damage you're doing is to a humanoid-- yourself.
Nonetheless, quite funny. :)

 Sakkce 04/11/07 9:01 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Viper (Post 323054) That was just someone miscorrectly interpreting what was going on. They used some item that does damage to yourself, and in that case Murder applies because the damage you're doing is to a humanoid-- yourself.
Atleast the debuff which does 700 damage over 7 seconds from Nightmare Vine (Nightmare Pollen it was called I think) increases with murder. Instead of getting 100 damage per tick I get 102 damage per tick.

I'm wondering if Murder increases damage I do to other fellow players from boss abilities such as Shatter or the Disease from pre emperor trash in AQ40.

 sp00n 04/11/07 9:11 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sakkce (Post 323648) Atleast the debuff which does 700 damage over 7 seconds from Nightmare Vine (Nightmare Pollen it was called I think) increases with murder. Instead of getting 100 damage per tick I get 102 damage per tick. I'm wondering if Murder increases damage I do to other fellow players from boss abilities such as Shatter or the Disease from pre emperor trash in AQ40.
Hm.
Is the Rupture debuff from Moroes affected by Murder?
Last time I checked the combat log entry was "You suffer x physical damage by (through?) Rupture."
There was no hint to Moroes in the log (found out because Recap counted that damage as my own instead Moroes').

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