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Old 04/10/07, 4:26 AM   #1
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
A theory on defense and miss chance

So, before I get to the actual theory, let me spell out the background:

Starting at about post 850 in the rogue dps spreadsheet thread (Rogue DPS Spreadsheet, there's a section wherein the effect of weapon skill on hit chance is investigated. For those of you that want to read over the supporting argumentation, you might read posts 921, 930, 971, and 972 where I post various analysis of the data in question. For those that want to skip all that, what we found is as follows:

1) +1 weapon skill seems to increase your hit chance by .1%
2) The base miss chance for dual-wield against a level 73 is more than 24.6% - in particular, the data we've seen has been largely consistant with a 25.5% base miss chance.

Now, the current theory (as far as I know) is that mobs (usually) have 5 times level in defense - so a level 73 mob has 365 defense, and, in particular, 15 defense more than a level 70 mob. So, if you believe what the character screen says about defense, you'd expect this to reduce the hit chance by .6% beyond the base 24% miss rate. Instead, we notice a miss rate of 1.5% higher than versus a level 70 mob.

So, my immediate thought in reading this is: if +weapon skill gives +.1% hit, might +defense give +.1% enemy miss rate, despite what the character sheet says? This would account for the level 73 base miss rate correctly, and there's a certain logic to it.

As a first place to look to confirm or disprove this theory, I watched the miss rates of bosses attacking our tanks on a selection of fights. Alas, the sample size was inadequate to be conclusive.

However, tonight, I ran a full Heroic Underbog tonight, and parsed it with Recap starting just after the first boss. And over the course of the remainder of the run, Recap recorded 1087 attacks made against the tank, of which 189 missed, for a miss rate of 17.4%. The tank in question had 493 defense. Now, the mobs in heroic Underbog are all level 70 and up, so, logically speaking their base miss rate should be 5% or less, and, according to the character sheet, 493 defense should reduce their hit rate by 5.72%, so they should be missing 10.72% of the time or less (as some of them are level 71 or 72).

Now, if the miss rate is, in fact, 10.72% or under, then the 17.4% observed rate is roughly 8 standard deviations from the mean. Aka, totally impossible. So clearly one of three things is true:

1) The base miss rate of monsters is higher than 5%, or
2) Defense increases miss rate by more than .04% per point, or
3) There's some other factor reducing miss rate.

Now, I can't think of anything for #3 (although if someone has an idea, I'm all ears), and #1 would require more testing (notably, someone with a significantly different defense parsing a similar run. In particular, a feral druid tank, who can become uncritable at a much lower defense value, might be a good person to take data). However, lets look at #2, in particular, the theorized .1% miss rate per point of defense. Well, this would cause the base miss rate to be 5% + 143*(.1) = 19.3%. Since some mobs are higher level, they would have a base miss chance up to 1% lower - hence, the "average" miss rate would be somewhere between 18.3% and 19.3%. The observed rate was 17.4%, which, depending on which set of numbers you use, is somewhere between 1 and 1.5 standard deviations from the expecation - well within statistically accepted bounds.

Now, this isn't proof, of course - as mentioned, more testing (at a different defense value) would be needed to be sure. But it certainly looks possible that, despite what the character screen says, +defense gives +.1% enemy miss, much as +weapon skill gives +.1% hit.

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Old 04/10/07, 4:31 AM   #2
Morsexy
Banned
 
Human Warrior
 
Ysera
tomorrow when i do a couple of heroics or 25 man, ill keep a log and a copy.

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Old 04/10/07, 7:39 AM   #3
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
As luck would have it, I'm currently running tests vs 71-73 mobs in the flight only areas to determine the base miss for druids (it's ~5%) As well as trying to confirm the effect of skill, thought it would seem you've already done that, .1 per point fits considering my relatively small samples.

I'll just throw on some tanking gear and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

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Old 04/10/07, 7:46 AM   #4
Tzan
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Shaman
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Do any of the mobs dual-wield and could that be accounting for some of the difference?

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Old 04/10/07, 8:29 AM   #5
Muggins
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Heroic Underbog does have a dual wielding type mob, the name escapes me(beserkers?) but they're in the Broken mob packs just before the second boss. So it may very well be these that affected the sample.

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Old 04/10/07, 9:01 AM   #6
vpolden
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Goblin Warlock
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Interesting theory. I'll run some tests in instances myself later. As for the dual wielding mobs, is there a generally accepted theory around right now about their missrate?

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Old 04/10/07, 11:40 AM   #7
Apate
POWER = MEAT + OPPORTUNITY = BATTLEWORMS
 
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ChickenArise
Night Elf Warlock
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by vpolden View Post
Interesting theory. I'll run some tests in instances myself later. As for the dual wielding mobs, is there a generally accepted theory around right now about their missrate?
Evidence is currently leaning towards DW mobs having similar missrates to DW players. I don't recall how close the missrates were, but they didn't appear to be far off from the testing that I recall.

See you, auntie.

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Old 04/10/07, 1:05 PM   #8
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Muggins View Post
Heroic Underbog does have a dual wielding type mob, the name escapes me(beserkers?) but they're in the Broken mob packs just before the second boss. So it may very well be these that affected the sample.
I can imagine this having an effect, but over a sample encompassing 3/4 of the instance I wouldn't expect it to be a major one. Assuming the DW mobs make up, say, 10% of the attacks and have a base 24% miss chance, the overall expected miss rate would still only be about 12.5%, well under the observed value.

However, I admit that my data isn't the ideal set to be testing on due to the diversity of mob types and whatever. The best test would involve either a) a tank parsing all his boss fights except Prince, Moroes, and any other DW bosses for a couple of nights, or b) A very patient tank, healer, and hunter.

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Old 04/11/07, 4:12 PM   #9
Athinira
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Mobs 1-3 level above you get, in addition to the 0.2% miss from the extra 5 defense per level, 1% less chance to be hit. In other words it looks this way:
Level 70 mob: 5% chance to be missed
Level 71 mob: 5% + 1% for level difference + 0.2% for defense difference
Level 72 mob: 5% + 2% for level difference + 0.4% for defense difference
Level 73 mob: 5% + 3% for level difference + 0.6% for defense difference

I sadly can't link this since its quite old data, but it was proved way back when Molten Core (and BWL) was endgame, both a hunter and warrior tested it, the hunter was able to achieve 100% hitchance when going from +8% hit to +9%, so the only logical conclusion from that is that mobs 1-3 levels above you gain an additional 1% chance to be missed per level. I believe this misschance scales exponentially if the mob is 4 or more levels above you.

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Old 04/11/07, 4:15 PM   #10
Kalman
Super Macho Man
 
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Orc Shaman
 
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Athinira: that data was reliable for *special attacks* (and possibly for 2H auto). For DW autoattacks, no 1% per level missrate was observed in any of the data I've seen; a 1% per level would imply a 27.6% base miss rate.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

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Old 04/12/07, 4:02 AM   #11
sp00n
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Originally Posted by Athinira View Post
Mobs 1-3 level above you get, in addition to the 0.2% miss from the extra 5 defense per level, 1% less chance to be hit. In other words it looks this way:
Level 70 mob: 5% chance to be missed
Level 71 mob: 5% + 1% for level difference + 0.2% for defense difference
Level 72 mob: 5% + 2% for level difference + 0.4% for defense difference
Level 73 mob: 5% + 3% for level difference + 0.6% for defense difference

I sadly can't link this since its quite old data, but it was proved way back when Molten Core (and BWL) was endgame, both a hunter and warrior tested it, the hunter was able to achieve 100% hitchance when going from +8% hit to +9%, so the only logical conclusion from that is that mobs 1-3 levels above you gain an additional 1% chance to be missed per level. I believe this misschance scales exponentially if the mob is 4 or more levels above you.
That's interesting, since I can only remember that 8.6% miss chance for special attacks was brought up when I posted that screenshot fighting Vem with +8% hit and missing a backstab.

That knowledge seems to have avoided this forum for a long, long time then.

Stopped Playing

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Old 04/12/07, 5:26 AM   #12
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
That's interesting, since I can only remember that 8.6% miss chance for special attacks was brought up when I posted that screenshot fighting Vem with +8% hit and missing a backstab.

That knowledge seems to have avoided this forum for a long, long time then.
This might be true. Remember that we are talking data over 1 year old, which means that while they are most likely are still accurate, my memory might not be. I believe, however, the warrior was using a 2h = No DW test results.

The tests back then was run over a long period btw, we were talking a hunter running the mod through 2-3 MC clears with 8% hit, then 2-3 clears with 9% hit, so it was a pretty large data sample on his part. I remember the hunter result for ranged attacks though, with 8% hit he had a total of 216 misses over the course of those 2-3 runs, 0 misses with 9% hit on both autoshot and specials. Warrior had 6% hit and was sporting around 2.5% miss, can't remember if it was white attacks only or white and specials.

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Old 04/12/07, 5:49 AM   #13
 Vandemar
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heffray#1981
Troll Rogue
 
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I managed to read this thread just after tanking a Heroic Underbog run on my feral druid alt (413.3 defense, 152 rating, with 4 resilience to eliminate the remaining crit chance on 73s)- I had reset Recap about 2 pulls into the run, after forgetting about it at the beginning. Incoming melee on the tank was as follows:

758 hits, 140 Misses, 447 dodges (I was seeing about a 37% tooltip dodge chance with BoK and GoA, for the most part), and 0 crushes / crits / parries / blocks. Assuming 1 def = .1% incoming Miss chance and 5.0% base Miss, the predicted value would be 11.3% Miss against lvl 70 mobs, 10.8% against 71's, and 10.3% against 72's, and I recorded a 10.4% rate against mobs ranging from 70 to 72, with a sample size of 1345 attacks.

Last edited by Vandemar : 04/12/07 at 5:50 AM. Reason: forgot an assumption

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Old 04/12/07, 6:17 AM   #14
hiwrac
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I can imagine this having an effect, but over a sample encompassing 3/4 of the instance I wouldn't expect it to be a major one. Assuming the DW mobs make up, say, 10% of the attacks and have a base 24% miss chance, the overall expected miss rate would still only be about 12.5%, well under the observed value.
Did you take into account the extra miss rating from defense?

I also believe the number of attacks they do could be quite a bit higher than 10% for several reasons.

-) They are often killed after the rest of the pull is dead, giving them more times to get hits in.
-) They hit fast.
-) The trash from the 2nd to 3rd boss spends a lot of time casting spells such as acid spit instead of hitting the tank.

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Old 04/12/07, 7:00 AM   #15
hiwrac
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Black Dragonflight
Update!

I sent out to find out if DW mobs do infact suffer from the same miss penalty that players do. I did a simple, relatively controlled test. All the mobs are the same level and same type, all DW and have no special attacks or offensive spells.

Mob: Demon Hunter Supplicant (located in large groups near Black Temple), Level 70.
Player: 492 defense (additional 5.68% chance to miss).
Projected Miss Rate: 24+5.68 = 29.68%
Actual Miss Rate: 28.5% (2,763 samples)

This seems to confirm that at least some DW mobs suffer the full miss rate. It also doesn't seem to support the first poster's claim of increased miss rate for defense, at least not for level 73 mobs.

I am going to start watching this more closely in the future to see if I can get a more definite answer for mobs 71+.

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