Vontre's Mage DPS Spreadsheet - Page 18

Akuman · 02/04/08, 8:55 PM

Hello Vontre.

First of all, thanks a lot for your work regarding theorycrafting, spreadsheet modeling, and the recent graphs.
They have all helped me understand theorycraft to a higher level, and ultimately made me a better mage.

Second of all, I was wondering if you could implement two cells in the gear selector sheet that display your hp and mana.

I do understand that you display intellect, and that stamina has nothing to do with the way you model your dps.

Nevertheless I use your spreadsheet to help me choose which gear would suit me better, and find it better once I add two cells that calculate my hp and mana.

I do realise this could be misinterpreted as a selfish move that allows me to be lazy and not change every updated version of your spreadsheet, and satisfy my demands at the same time.

However, I do believe that this addition to the spreadsheet could benefit other users of the spreadsheet, and perhaps would promote new novice users to use the spreadsheet to make better decisions regarding choices in game.

Third of all, I have noticed some small errors in the spreadsheet regarding the item database.
- There seems to be around 8 extra band of eternity rings listed, which all have +37 stamina and no other stats.
- Maelstrom's Fury does not seem to be included in the item database.
- Some epic gems have not been added
- Noble Veiled Topaz and Great Dawnstone do not have their names attached to the gems

I hope you don't take offence and don't stop theorycrafting

Stirius · 02/05/08, 4:49 AM

Originally Posted by Vontre

Bah, I'd been waiting for someone to improve the interface a little bit but oh well. It's BETA hahaha. Here.

http://www.magegraf.com

Looks very promising. Thanks for your work.

I noticed a strange thing about the "cast sequence" for the "fire" build:
"Fire Vulnerability (from another mage)"=off, cast sequence reports 3xscorch then fireball until death, no reapplying of scorch
"Fire Vulnerability (from another mage)"=on, cast sequence reports only fireball (correct)
"Fire Vulnerability (from another mage)"=on, "encounter duration" > "New target" results in 3 scorches for each new target (but not for the first target)

Baruk · 02/05/08, 5:31 AM

Hey Vontre, thanks for the marvelous work. However one thing is unclear to me..
Does "Stats (without trinkets)" mean that also the passive stats should be ignored?
I just ask because iirc in your spreadsheet the passive stats counted as base stats and only the "active" part
was part of the "trinket".

edit: bad wording. Clarified

galzohar · 02/05/08, 6:05 AM

I thought the spreadsheet assumes you included the static damage from the trinkets in your spell damage and only model the "use" effect... Isn't that the case?

manly · 02/05/08, 2:31 PM

The spreadsheet assumes you input passive stats from the trinkets, and the options are for the procs themselves. However, the web tool assumes you don't enter passive stats from trinkets. You can see the passive stats are removed if you use the import option.

The web tool always assume 2 fire mages. Hence why only 3 scorch.

Baruk · 02/06/08, 10:33 AM

True, couldn't test the import yesterday as armory seemed to be down...

thanks anyway for clarifing

Cryic · 02/10/08, 11:01 AM

Vontre,

Much thanks for your continued hard work. Couple quick questions: When did you create the new web tool? I've been following your spreadsheet for a while and use it to whack my guildies over the head with

Will your web tool have an option to turn on spell pushbacks for the simulator? The reason I ask is because one of the bigger advantages that I see for spell haste is reducing the amount of time you spend in the .5 to 2.5 <or whatever your cast time is>, increasing the value of spell haste even more.

Also, it would be awesome if your web tool showed the relative values of spell damage = haste = hit = crit.

Thanks again for all your work!

Sguz · 02/10/08, 2:12 PM

Hi,
I appriciate your really nice work.

As I see the new Items of 2.4, i want to have them in your xls. How do I include them to your xls? Just paste in the Stats and Names in for example for the new t6 wirst I go to the tab "Wrist" and add the name and the stats? Or ist there an easier way? (I dont want to wait till they are included)^^

Thx

Vontre · 02/10/08, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sguz

Hi,
I appriciate your really nice work.

As I see the new Items of 2.4, i want to have them in your xls. How do I include them to your xls? Just paste in the Stats and Names in for example for the new t6 wirst I go to the tab "Wrist" and add the name and the stats? Or ist there an easier way? (I dont want to wait till they are included)^^

Thx

Easiest way is to find some crappy item in the list that you'll obviously never use, and replace the name and stats.

Aswen · 02/12/08, 10:53 AM

Vontre.. I love this spreadsheet. Thanks for the the effort you've put into building it.

Here's a little VBA macro to import Armory data into Excel 2003. I've tried to make it work the same as if you did a copy and paste.

Paste your character sheet URL into cell E6 and then run the macro. You could even stick a button on the page if you wanted to be really user friendly.

Sub importArmoryData()

' Switch to the armory tab incase you run the macro from somewhere else
Application.Sheets("Armory").Select

Dim url As String
' E6 here is the cell where your character sheet url is
url = Application.Range("E6").Text

' E19 is where we're going to stick the data
Application.Range("E19").Select

' Open a XMLHTTP connection to the Armory URL and get the Reponse
Set XML = CreateObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")
XML.Open "GET", url, False
XML.Send
response = XML.responseText

' Split the reponse by line breaks and dump it into excel
Dim strArray As Variant
strArray = Split(XML.responseText, Chr(10))
For i = 0 To UBound(strArray)
    ActiveCell.FormulaR1C1 = strArray(i)
    ActiveCell.Offset(1, 0).Select
Next i

Set XML = Nothing

End Sub

Sguz · 02/12/08, 11:57 AM

what about the set bonuses, how do I add the bracers, boots and belt to the t6 set? I Found a value called "IsSet" but there's nowhere an entry

what about adding/moving spellhaste to Itemdb? (just cosmetical)

(by the way, interesed in the 2.4-loot-modified xls?)

/Edit: Found in each Tab @AC the value for the set and now it works / problem solved

Vard · 02/12/08, 8:29 PM

First of all ... great work !! This is an amazing spreadsheet !!!

Now to my question and it may be very similar to the question the previous poster had, but I couldn't find the columns or values he/she was referring too in his/her update: Is there a feature already built into the spreadsheet which accounts for bonuses for gear-sets? For example, having 3 of the Imbued Netherweave set gives a +28 crit. If it's there, I can't find it, can someone point out where that bonus is set/calculated? And if it's not there, is there a way to manually enter the set-bonuses so that they are included in the calculations?

(edited to add a 2nd question): Is Arcane Intellect considered anywhere? If so, where is the switch to turn in on/off?

On a side-note: I used the Gear-selector feature and selected all my gear, but somehow the numbers (stats) showing up are not what the character-sheet in WoW tells me. Maybe I did something wrong, but I think I did it right ... oh well, I will double-check and update my post with any findings some time later.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on my question regarding set-bonus.

Vard.

Spuddelkopf · 02/13/08, 7:31 PM

Originally Posted by Chentoka

Hi Vontre,

Would you be able to add Moonkin Aura to the buff options please?
[...]
Just to echo what others have said, this sheet is awesome and I can't thank you enough for all of the work you've put in to it.

I just want to cite Chentoka, as nobody seems to have replied to him. I just started using the spreadsheet and noticed the abscense of an option to include Moonkin aura, too.
And Kudos to you for this brilliant piece of work Vontre

Bandoer · 02/15/08, 4:55 PM

Would it be possible to put out a number for "damage output in 5 minutes". (and/or other time limits) It is not quite simple because you could come up with a theortical 250 spell rotation that maximizes this, but something that roughly takes into account cooldowns and mana management.

While haste does improve damage per second, it does not improve damage per mana. I am curious how stacking haste affects damage output on relatively long fights. My guess is that there is a point in fight length where the mana starvation from haste lowers haste's value as a stat.

If you compare 1% hit to 1% haste (ignoring item cost here), 1% hit gives you 1% added dps for the entire length of the fight. 1% haste gives you 1% added dps only for as long as you have the mana to support it.

galzohar · 02/15/08, 11:53 PM

1% hit also gives you 1% dps for as long as you have the mana to support it, however you will run out ~1% slower ;p

Anyway since you're not going to go out of mana, more mana just means more dps consumeables and less mana consumeables, which isn't significantly affected by haste. I'm not sure how the spreadsheet models this though (aka choosing the correct consumables).

Bungle · 02/16/08, 11:30 PM

So I was messing around with the simulator, to try and get an idea of how stats will effect my planned spec for my alt mage, so I can plan what gear to aim for. My results arent very precise, as I just added 10 to each stat one by one to see how much dps increased by, then divided by 10 to get the dps gain for each stat (cant just do 1 as the sim doesnt show decimal places).

So anyway, with a 40/0/21 build, with the following stats and buffs,

1025 arcane/fire damage
1000 frost damage
210 crit rating
116 hit rating
139 haste rating
400 int
157 spirit

Icon of the Silver Crescent/TLC, Spellstrike 2 pc

Misery/CoS (10%)/CoE/BoK/Wrath of Air/Flask/Food/Oil/Bloodlust

VT/BoW/JoW/Mana Spring/Super Mana pots

Default 300sec duration, 45 sec pushback

Results I got were,

1 dmg - 0.6 dps
1 crit - 0.6 dps
1 hit - 0.5 dps
1 haste - 0.4 dps
1 int - 0.6 dps
1 spi - 0.5 dps

Now most of it seems reasonable enough to me, the int and spi making sense with the regen changes, hit being lower than it would be for fire as arcane is already capped and its only affecting frost, but what gets me is the crit rating number. I always thought that it was a worse stat than +dmg regardless of spec, due to it requiring more rating per 1%. I thought it might be to do with TLC as that may make crit scale slightly better but even replacing that with hex shrunken head I still got the same dps increase. I tried to look through the 'spell detail' output but it didnt seem to give an average for spells so I could see how crit/dmg were affecting the spells on an individual basis.

So basically my question is, why does the sim rate crit so highly? Is the ice shards/spell power frostbolt crits something to do with it? Or is my testing method not the right way to go about it?

I do appreciate its still a bit of a work in progress so apologies if Ive missed a known error.

f1reburn · 02/17/08, 3:23 AM

I noticed that it's no longer possible to check the racial and Mage/Molten armour with the simulator? Does it now automatically assume Mage armour for the arcane specs?

Also, for 48/0/13, I notice the simulator sometimes chaincasts Arcane Missiles instead of AB/AM/AB/AM/etc. Is the mana consumpion for chaining Arcane Missiles lower than AB/AM with the regen tick? Finally, ever considered AM/Frostbolt or AM/Fireball or AM/Pyroblast for more regen tics, or is the dps just too low to justify the regen?

Duravi · 02/17/08, 5:00 AM

1025 arcane/fire damage

1000 frost damage

That caught my attention immediately. With 5/5 mind mastery your +dmg is only 1000? Sounds to me like a pretty undergeared mage, and this leads me to be fairly certain that your mage doesn't even have 2pc T5. If you don't have 2pc T5 you really have absolutely no business being deep arcane in the first place. Until you get better gear you may even want to try using something like 33/28, it is a spec that falls behind quickly once you start getting decent gear but for a gimped mage it may actually be your best spec. With the death of AM spam as effective dps in 2.3 I cannot stress enough how worthless you will be as deep arcane spec without your 2 pc T5.

galzohar · 02/17/08, 6:28 AM

33/28 is always bad, becuase at just about every gear level (didn't verify for extremely/unrealisticly low spell damage though) empowered fireballs will beat spell power. Either your crit is too low to support spell power or your spell damage is too high to drop empowered fireball for it is pretty much what makes it never works. Trying to gear for crit will only make things worse for you.

Bungle · 02/17/08, 10:45 AM

No, thats my stats with 0/5 Mind Mastery. Having used the sheet in the past I just assumed it would want the same numbers (i.e. no mind mastery boosted spell dmg, no talent/racial boosted int).

And yes, I only have 1 piece of T5.... I'm not trying to claim Arcane/Frost is the best option for me, its pretty obvious that fires better. I never said arcane/frost was better than fire. You don't need to tell me how the specs fare against each other, its been gone over many times, in many different threads. The reason I want to be arcane/frost is because its a change, sure fire is awesome for doing damage, but Im an alt, and as such I dont do progression raids, and as such I don't need to be spec appropriately. Hence, I am speccing for something I feel will be more fun.

Again, I dont care about whats the better spec, all I want to know is why with that spec, using the sim, with the stats I posted, why is it showing crit rating to be as effective as +dmg? And I don't WANT to gear for crit, its just what the sim is suggesting

Duravi · 02/17/08, 11:39 AM

Well Bungle I hate to dissapoint you but with that particular spec the main reason your +dmg wouldn't be scaling as well as it should be is not having 2pc T5. That is going to make a big difference by itself, some issues with your gear or talents choices could be present but I cannot say for sure without seeing your char and talents obviously. Compared to 2pc T5 those would be a minor issue if they are even one at all. Also do you realize that until 2.4 comes spell haste is a poor choice for your gear. Having 139 passive spell haste when your highest dps spells get nothing from it is not the way tp go at the moment. With spells that scale poorly with +dmg spell crit can catch up and even pass dmg, and by going a spec you don't have the bare essential 2 pc T5 for, wearing almost 140 passive spell haste which does almost nothing for your main nuke, and having somewhat low +dmg on your char to begin with it almost looks like you are trying to make your spells scale horribly with +dmg.

Bungle · 02/17/08, 11:59 AM

Ok... Ill explain myself even further

My mage is an alt, when I started her the plan was fire all the way. With this in mind I made the spellfire set, enchanted the weapon I got with sunfire etc. So my gear is slanted towards fire to start with. This is the reason I have 139 haste (She is fire atm when I raid). Now, as Im an alt, I dont get to do too many runs really, and as such my gear choices are limited, which is why I dont have an arcane/frost set I can just switch into, so Ive just ran the sim using my current stats, to see what would be the best upgrade route should I respec. I appreciate haste is a bad stat pre 2.4 for arcane, and I still feel it wont be too good even after the changes as its still going to cut into gcd fairly easy with Bloodlust and/or IV, the sim supports this view.

I heeded your advice though, and when I add in 2 piece t5, dmg does indeed beat crit again, +dmg giving 0.7 dps increase, and crit still giving 0.6. This makes 1 crit rating worth roughly 0.86 +dmg, which I guess seems more reasonable. I think my problem was I was focused on figuring out why crit is doing so well, where in fact its that other stats are doing bad, if that makes any sense.

Staying with fire is by far the easier/cheaper option, but I'm just a bit bored of it. I completely understand that I really should have 2 piece T5 to make arcane/frost viable, and I dont expect it to do as well without it. Im not on some kind of crusade to prove that its possible to do well as x spec with y gear, all I wanted to know was why the sim shows crit scaling as it was, and your suggestion of t5 did the trick, so cheers!

And apologies if I come off a bit.. shirty, just dont want to be regarded as another person that claims arcane beats fire based on anecdotal evidence, hell, when I have been arcane pre 2.4, I've done terrible :P

cladnin · 02/18/08, 12:55 PM

I'm sure you're doing plenty of updates and busy, etc etc, but I came across a few things that could be added (if it wasn't already said, if you didn't already plan to, etc). Looks great, I was glad mages finally had some kind of sim -_-. I was jealous of the druid and shaman ones.

Moonkin Aura
Improved Judgment of the Crusader
Exalted Hyjal ring proc
Improved Sanctity Aura (unlikely, but why not)

Maddmage · 02/18/08, 5:25 PM

First of all, I've been using your spreadsheet for some time now, and I gotta say it's nothing short of awesome, and thank you and your collaborators very much for putting all the work into it.

I do have a question on the latest one though. When I change the value for the "Winter's Chill on target" option between 'yes' and 'no'. I don't see any changes in my frost spell DPS at all. In fact, the only thing that changes when I switch that from 'no' to 'yes' is an increase in the Arcane DPS/dmg. Is there some kind of explanation for this? Am I doing something wrong? (fyi I'm using the gear selector option and not manual stat input).

Vontre · 02/18/08, 5:31 PM

If you already have the winter's chill talent it's assumed always on.