Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04/25/07, 7:58 PM   #61
Liebestod
King Hippo
 
Liebestod's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Regarding #2: So you've been using the upgrade comparison module to compare stats, but you're saying you'd like a module to compare each stat at once? Interesting... this is the one I'm most likely to actually implement =)
I originally became interested in modeling these things because I found myself wondering what types of stats I should be focusing on given my current build - knowing that the more crit I had, the more additional +dmg and +hit would help my DPS, I was wondering if I had passed the threshold at the returns to these other stats would be greater than stacking more crit. According to the spreadsheet the answer is "yes", but like I said, it's a bit cumbersome to make this comparison given the current interface. Also being able to adjust the comparison based on slotmod (eg. compare 1.2 +dmg to 1 crit rating, since crit is more expensive to itemize) may be useful.

Modeling additional rotations is not hard, it's cumbersome from a user-interface standpoint. I'll look into it.
Well, more choices won't confuse us that much. :P I'd suspect that mixing in fireblasts would raise the DPS of a Scorch build by 10% or so, as well as lowering its efficiency. It'd just be nice to be able to be sure.

Thank you, though in the case of those trinkets modeling them when they are often used in conjuction with player abilities like arcane power is fairly difficult.
Yea, I imagine that there's a margin at which it's no longer useful. But trinkets can still be modeled usefully in a very simplistic manner - eg. if a trinket with a 2-minute CD gives +150 damage for 15 seconds, this averages out to 150/8 +dmg in the long run, and that conversion could be factored in to calculations. Some trinkets like the Lightning Capacitor, Mark of Defiance, etc. probably have a rather significant effect on DPS or efficiency and deserve to be factored into consideration somehow, if only in an over-simplistic manner.

Oh yea, and I should've added a 5th suggestion to my previous post: Threat per second. Should be relatively simple to include, and... seems useful?

[Edit]

Also, one other comment... the Vampiric Touch flag seems to based around a static amount of Shadow Priest DPS. It would be nice if it were adjustable, since I imagine that it's default level may be rather high compared to what I'm used to..

Last edited by Liebestod : 04/25/07 at 8:42 PM. Reason: Addendum

Offline
Old 04/25/07, 8:19 PM   #62
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
Roywyn's Avatar
 
Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Ghalt View Post
From what I'm reading, a player's own Ignites will roll/stack.
Tried it a few days ago on the PTR, and they didn't seem to stack.
1k crit, 200 tick, 1k crit, 300 tick, 300 tick, just like on the live servers.

I did get some strange result once when I crit just when the second tick of the previous ignite ticked, leading to 2 new ticks of some pretty odd damage, higher than it should be. I don't remember the numbers sadly. I still think of it as a lag-related bug though, the same that eats my ignite damage on Fireball + Fire Blast combos.

And yes, ignites that do not reset tick timers are a pain to model.

Offline
Old 04/26/07, 3:11 PM   #63
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
New version is out - v2.5. You can get it from the same place as usual (see my signature) and you can delete the mage_dps_gear.xls copy that's been floating around.

I finally got around to merging the gear selector with the main sheet and actually making it useable. Big thanks to Kalman (Laplace) for writing up all that data!

The way it outputs your stats is a little different now with the gear selector in place. There is a yellow section in the 2nd column that will show your stats, depending on whether you opt for gear selector or manual stats. There is also a big, friendly yellow option right at the option that lets you toggle between the two.

Gear selector is now the second page, instead of manual talent selector.

I'll be looking at some more of the feature suggestions in the future. Thanks for your support everyone!

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 04/26/07, 3:56 PM   #64
Leto
King Hippo
 
Leito
Troll Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Might want to add a note about the manually editing talents option.

Also, the gear selection doesn't seem to update school specific dmg, and manually setting school specific dmg adds to both the manual section's stats and the gear specified stats.

I'll let you know if I see anything else.

Rogue at heart.

Offline
Old 04/26/07, 7:02 PM   #65
Wynna
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
First off, thanks a lot for this effort in making the mage spreadsheet look more like the rogue one, I've alllllways wanted that so I could make multiple gear swaps and see the results.

Now to the feedback, first thing I noticed was the lack of items to choose from, I have like 4 items that are not in the spreadsheet, Frostfire Robe, Ring of the Eternal Flame, Neltharion's Tear and Nethekurse's Rod of Torment, I tried adding those myself manually but it didn't work out, they wouldn't show on the drop downs, nor did my leet +5 spirit enchant to boots (hardcore pver lawl), it also doesn't seem to check to see if you have the right gems to give you the socket bonus and most of the trinkets don't seem to be modeled but I'm sure you'll do that eventually. I think that's all, if I notice anything else I'll let you know.

ps: /w vont go get minti vont.. DO EET

Offline
Old 04/26/07, 8:40 PM   #66
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Wynna View Post
ps: /w vont go get minti vont.. DO EET
Minti was gotten, I pwned him. Ice mage > combat rogue. =p

On topic. I actually did another revision today and sent it to Kalman. It's 2.5.1 and it has the spell damage values fixed for gear selector. It also features a brand new cycle builder. Lets you custom build cycles of... I think 12 or more spells and add them to the main sheet. I think it's neat... hope you guys like it.

Wait on Kalman for new upload. =D

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 04/27/07, 3:47 PM   #67
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
The new spreadsheet is uploaded, you can get it now. I put in a few premade cycles like Fireballx2 Fire Blast, or Scorchx3 Fire Blast.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 04/27/07, 10:45 PM   #68
Kavan
Bald Bull
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kilrogg
Now that it's possible to enter gear and with all the AB cycles available I decided to make a comparison what results I get compared with my spreadsheet. This is for a pure arcane build and I was surprised that ABx3+AM+Scorch was preferred compared to ABx3+AMx2 that my spreadsheet prefers. Now granted the difference is not that big, about 870 vs 890 dps, but it was enough to pick my interest in trying to dig down where the actual difference materializes. I'm not sure I found it, but the best explanation I can make is that the benefit of AMx2 cycle comes from higher proc rate ability when used with Shiffar's Nexus-Horn, The Lightning Capacitor and similar gear. I'll stay tuned and am looking forward to make some more comparisons when some of the proc abilities are implemented.

Offline
Old 04/28/07, 1:58 AM   #69
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Kavan View Post
Now that it's possible to enter gear and with all the AB cycles available I decided to make a comparison what results I get compared with my spreadsheet. This is for a pure arcane build and I was surprised that ABx3+AM+Scorch was preferred compared to ABx3+AMx2 that my spreadsheet prefers. Now granted the difference is not that big, about 870 vs 890 dps, but it was enough to pick my interest in trying to dig down where the actual difference materializes. I'm not sure I found it, but the best explanation I can make is that the benefit of AMx2 cycle comes from higher proc rate ability when used with Shiffar's Nexus-Horn, The Lightning Capacitor and similar gear. I'll stay tuned and am looking forward to make some more comparisons when some of the proc abilities are implemented.
You do not benefit from debuff overlap if you use 2 waves of arcane missiles.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 04/28/07, 2:32 AM   #70
Kavan
Bald Bull
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Vontre View Post
You do not benefit from debuff overlap if you use 2 waves of arcane missiles.
I'm aware of that, but AMx2 still comes on top, the difference in dps of AM and Scorch is that big. Dps of AM is actually higher than ABx3 ramp, I only use the cycle to increase mana efficiency. Of course on short fights AB spam is the only option.

Last edited by Kavan : 04/28/07 at 2:40 AM.

Offline
Old 04/28/07, 2:41 AM   #71
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Kavan View Post
I'm aware of that, but AMx2 still comes on top, the difference in dps of AM and Scorch is that big.
That doesn't really make sense. The overlap is such a powerful mechanic, as soon as I started modeling it every non-overlap mechanic pretty much dropped off the radar. I can't be sure how you got that result without seeing the calculation. Keep in mind my cycle builder is not just for dps, it meets mana consumption restrictions as well.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
Old 04/28/07, 3:00 AM   #72
Kavan
Bald Bull
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Vontre View Post
That doesn't really make sense. The overlap is such a powerful mechanic, as soon as I started modeling it every non-overlap mechanic pretty much dropped off the radar. I can't be sure how you got that result without seeing the calculation. Keep in mind my cycle builder is not just for dps, it meets mana consumption restrictions as well.
I know how it works, I've been digging through it . My spreadsheet optimizes the spell mix as a linear program. So it's similar in that you specify all parameters of the fight like duration, resistances and so on. Except I don't match mps with going oom manualy, but just let the LP solve the problem for me. But that aside in my calculations the ABx3+AMx2 vs ABx3+AM+Scorch I get the first one dominating the other in both dps in dpm, comparing in a similar way to how you've done your cycle builder.

Actually now that I've done some more tests it seems that the more important factor is different miss rate between arcane and fire. I've disabled the trinkets and still get AMx2 ahead, but AM+Scorch is ahead if I don't have resists. This makes me wonder since you model this part as to where the discrepancy is. I'll try to figure out what's going on and let you know what I find.

Offline
Old 04/28/07, 3:19 AM   #73
Kavan
Bald Bull
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kilrogg
I found one minor bug. In gear sheet for Int you multiply with gnome racial in C91 and then again in Calculations!G19. Also when I have two pieces of T4 equipped it enables a bunch of set bonuses in the bottom. This is not the real problem though so I'll keep looking...

EDIT: It turns out it was a bug on my side. I had a mistake somewhere in the AM+Scorch cycle and after fixing it I get the same results, about 20 dps difference in favor of AM+Scorch. I'll have to try it out in practice.

Last edited by Kavan : 04/28/07 at 3:58 AM.

Offline
Old 05/07/07, 2:08 AM   #74
Xei
Don Flamenco
 
Xei's Avatar
 
Troll Monk
 
Mal'Ganis
Awesome spreadsheet, good for those perfectionists among us that want to see raw numbers and benefits of certain builds/items.

One thing I couldn't find is was Troll Beskering racial entered in anywhere? I burn mine every time I trinket which is at worst 10% faster casting speed.

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

Australia Offline
Old 05/16/07, 9:21 PM   #75
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
Vontre's Avatar
 
Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
New update 2.5.3. I fixed a few things. Arctic Winds talent option wasn't working correctly from manual select. Also forced master of elements and clearcasting to account that the spell must hit the target in order to proc. This slightly increases the mana conservation from hit gear. I made a few other various fixes I don't remember.

Oh and, I also removed the "glancing" type resist penalty for frostbolt due to discussion in the mage theorycraft thread. This increases frost dps by about 6%.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

United States Offline
 

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion » Class Mechanics

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mage DPS Spreadsheet by Yes Yes Class Mechanics 11 07/12/07 10:35 AM
Mage spreadsheet updated for 2.0 Hamlet Public Discussion 14 12/20/06 9:59 AM
Mage DPS Spreadsheet Hamlet Public Discussion 32 09/15/06 6:20 PM
Mage Spreadsheet, updated Hamlet Public Discussion 52 09/06/06 9:49 PM
Frost Mage Spreadsheet Hamlet Public Discussion 37 08/06/06 7:43 PM