Vontre's Mage DPS Spreadsheet - Page 8

alia · 07/19/07, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

AB3/AM/Scorch isn't AB spam, though. Far from it.

According to my calcs, ABx3, FBx2 is better DPM and DPS than ABx3, AM, scorch, assuming there's another mage in the raid keeping imp. scorch up. Anyone else finding this?

Also, Vontre or someone, how do you calculate the "Total Damage" done under the Cycle Builder section? It would make sense to multiply DPS by the total sustainability time and...there you go. However, in some cases the numbers seem a bit higher than this and in other cases an extremely large amount lower.

For instance I plugged in a 40/21 build, Did:

AB (2 -base mana)
AB (1)
Scorch
Scorch
Scorch

With 100 ms latency it seems that this would be possible. It then tells me

DPS: 1108
Time: 12:11
Total Damage: 399k.

Shouldn't that number be far higher?

galzohar · 07/19/07, 5:53 PM

It really depends what spell damage/buffs/etc you're runnign with ;p

Papajan · 07/19/07, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by alia

It then tells me

DPS: 1108
Time: 12:11
Total Damage: 399k.

Shouldn't that number be far higher?

It looks like you left your fight duration set to 360s (6m). The total damage is capped to the fight duration, while the time will show OOM time if you're given infinitely much time.

The motivation behind the fight duration is that most fights have a limited amount of time, especially for fights with enrages (either explicit ones or "overwhelm" types).

Myrdinn · 07/20/07, 6:50 AM

Did you see the last reply from Slouken on the official forums ?

FYI, we're working on something for 2.3 to help make /stopcasting lag workarounds unnecessary.

It looks interesting... finally ... after 2 years !

Source : WoW Forums -> Casting Latency Trick - Exploit or Legit?

But, answering to the 1-spell queue implementation, Slouken however answered "Nope".
Strange... I am wondering how they plan to adress the latency issue

lxsli · 07/20/07, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by Voliska

If I add an item to the bottom of the list (The Saga of Terokk), I can't get the drop-down menu to see it.

Copy an existing row and use "Insert copied cells" to put it in ABOVE the bottom of the table. I managed to dup blue gems like that, should work for the other tables.

zepi, what happened with your version?

Zure · 07/20/07, 2:14 PM

I'd like to do some quick tests of the spell roll system... are there any level 73 mobs (preferrably freezable) left in the outdoor world?

Vontre · 07/25/07, 6:54 PM

Updated to 2.6.2. I fixed a minor error in how spell haste was calculated, and made a major fix that was causing wand dps to be greatly overstated in overall damage calculations.

zepi · 07/25/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by lxsli

zepi, what happened with your version?

I think I sent it like ages ago for Kalman.... I have no idea what so ever if it ever got to Vontres hands, or he's even intrested in it anymore?

I can mail it to anyone who likes to have a look at it.

Vontre · 07/25/07, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by zepi

I think I sent it like ages ago for Kalman.... I have no idea what so ever if it ever got to Vontres hands, or he's even intrested in it anymore?

I can mail it to anyone who likes to have a look at it.

Ahahaha.

We forgot. Or Kalman forgot. I blame Kalman, because that's easier.

Go ahead and email it to matt.siege@gmail.com, easier that way.

Daederus · 07/26/07, 4:50 AM

First time poster here

Great spreadsheet, a lot of thought and immense detail involved.

Concerning the gear, there is an error with the Sethekk Oracle Cloak.
The 12 Spell Crit Rating should be Spell Hit Rating.

Thanks for the continuing updates Vontre!

Edit : I'm so glad to have stumbled across this place of pure theorycraft!
Home sweet home.

zepi · 07/26/07, 5:34 AM

I sent the modifications I made ages ago to Vontre, let's see what he can make out of it. I'm lacking the time and will to finish it, but it's definitely an improvement to usability and should be easy enough for anyone to fill the missing items and fix broken stats etc.

Kalman · 07/26/07, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vontre

Ahahaha.

We forgot. Or Kalman forgot. I blame Kalman, because that's easier.

Go ahead and email it to matt.siege@gmail.com, easier that way.

Pft. I am innocent of all wrongdoing, especially since all I do is upload what Vontre sends me, I don't actually *edit* the thing. :p

Daederus · 07/26/07, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by zepi

I sent the modifications I made ages ago to Vontre, let's see what he can make out of it. I'm lacking the time and will to finish it, but it's definitely an improvement to usability and should be easy enough for anyone to fill the missing items and fix broken stats etc.

It's easy enough to fix, it's just that every update will come with the same error if nobody reports it I guess?

Back to work I go ....

Xei · 08/03/07, 12:59 AM

I was putting my gear into the gear builder, and you haven't added the new Dawnstone/Topaz hit gems (+8hit and +5dmg/+4hit).

EDIT - might as well add this here.

Im trying to crunch some numbers to test my own personal viability of an Arcane spec - with the prospect of 2pc T5 and Al'ar coming up soon (with the undesirable thought of respecing weekly).

I like my 10/48/3 build, and it performs very well ... but I have to make sacrifices to keep myself at the hit cap (gems, Scryer trinket).

The Armory

I swap out Seers Signet for the CE Exalted ring, as well as TLC for Scryer Bloodgem to get to the hit cap (or very close). I know there is a nice hit neck/cloak/wand out of Kara but they just never dropped for me.

I do think that 10/48/3 would be fine (save Al'ar) if I could stay at the hit cap without having to use the gems - but for me I just can't. If I choose to go Arcane I will have to stick with it for a while, because I will re-socket my gear and remove all the hit gems.

I am next in-line (I hope) for T5 shoulders to get the 2pc bonus, and will be vying for Eye of Magtheridon as well to couple with TLC and 43/18/0 build - working off a ABx3/AM/Scorch rotation to get the most uptime out of the Eye.

Working off Vontre's spreadsheet, 10/48/3 blows 43/18/0 out of the water at 1700DPS vs 1400 DPS over a 5 min encounter - maybe im doing something wrong?

All I change is the talent build, trinket/item effects as well as the estimated hit/crit/dmg manual stat entry. I understand that Arcane builds perform very differently on paper as you have more control over your DPS - and the spreadsheet cannot model some of the benefits (nuking sooner due to less threat, the ability for awesome burst which can make/break some encounters).

In the end, I don't want to go to all the effort (and gold) to kit myself for Arcane to only have it perform as bad as the spreadsheet says (unless im doing something wrong).

Bittersweet · 08/03/07, 2:03 AM

After reading all these posts, I am excited at the prospect of increasing my dps. Spreadsheets are helping a ton as are reading about rotations.

I was wondering, on average, what kinda DPS should I expect once I get 1000 spl dmg with max +hit as a 10/48/3?

A lock in my guild pumped out 1200dps sustained on lurker tonight and I am just blown out of the water by how much he dominated everyone else... his stats are 920 spl dmg, 110 hit, 20.4 crit and he is spec'd 0/21/40. And he sustains 1200dps... We are a ssc/tk giuld so our gear isn't full t5/6 yet. My stats are close to that (I am the top mage in 8th) and I honestly cannot fathom that even with 1100spl dmg and a great group that I will be sustaining 1200dps.

I must be doing something wrong... 5scorches, 8fball, scorch blowing trinkets/beserking combustion and I am getting DOMINATED by a lock with 920 shadow dmg...

Any thoughts?

here is the WWS parse on the fight
Wow Web Stats

Xei · 08/03/07, 2:04 AM

Post a WWS parse and armory profile and we will be able to help better.

Flasked and raid buffed I am (with 10/48/3) around 1150 dmg and at the hit cap.

Here is a WWS of our Lurker kill last night - I had a Shadow Priest but no Shaman, and Lurker isn't the best fight as you lose a lot of DPS jumping in water, knockbacks, waiting on add spawns, lack of add debuffs (scorch, CoE, Misery) etc.

Loading...

On a stationary fight, with a Shaman+Shadow Priest, with all the necessary raid debuffs up 100% I can hit 1000-1100 DPS. I lost the WWS parse of me doing 1050ish on Maulgar.

I will never be able to hit what US Mages reach, because I play with 500ms latency MINIMUM from Australia - even /stopcasting macro's can only help so much.

Bittersweet · 08/03/07, 2:07 AM

Post updated with WWS

Xei · 08/03/07, 2:21 AM

Originally Posted by Bittersweet

Post updated with WWS

Which Mage are you?

Im going to guess Imperio - you should update your profile.

First thing I noticed is you cast waaaay too many scorches - I guess that could be due to the fact that you where the only Mage (alive) to keep the debuffs up. Dont ever use Arcane Blast - you should be aiming for 8ish fireballs then scorch to keep the debuff up.

You can cast while in the water if you didn't already know as well.

Dont bother scorching the adds, they will be dead or near dead before you get 5 up and get benefit. Just Fireball+Fireblast them down.

You didn't chew a single mana pot ... not one, where you short on mana? I would say so seeing as you wanded a few times.

My fight lasted 10 mins, and I landed 86 fireballs - if my fight had lasted 6 mins like yours, I would have landed 51 fireballs compared to your 32.

Also, neither of us got CoE ... grr, I'm going to chew my Locks about that AGAIN.

Your Lock was able to use CoD/CoA as much as he wanted, had Earth Shield on to make sure he was healed and never got spell interruption, had HUGE crit rate (38%) on shadowbolt, which means more shadow vuln procs, which means more damage. He got off 69 Shadowbolts and you got off 32 Fireballs - so DOUBLE.

manly · 08/03/07, 6:08 AM

Ok, a few things.

1- I can almost guarantee you that TLC is very very bad for 10/48/3. Why so many mages make the same mistake ?
2- I'm not sure why you would wear bracers of havok over the pvp bracers that come with dmg and crit. Even the season one bracers are more interesting. Although I can understand if you don't feel like re-enchanting a new pair of bracers.
3- I'm having a hard time understanding your gemming choices. Its not that the gems are bad, its just that sometimes you seem to go for the socket bonus, other times not. When you're not going for set bonus it feels a bit randomly chosen. If you're going to ignore socket bonuses, I would recommend +9 dmg runed living ruby almost exclusively. Maybe use 4hit/5dmg veiled noble topaz if you are dedicated enough to gear exclusively for bosses (I'll be honest and say I never did, I prefer to swap out +hit gear when that's needed).

about lurker

1- if you have low dps on lurker, its typically because you're not min/maxing your downtime.
This can be achieved many ways. If I were to recommend anything, I would propose you do the entire non-add phases in the water. Shadow priest heals + occasional chain heal from time to time is more than enough. Incidentally this also avoids the knockbacks.

If your guild is not a fan of using such a method, then what i was doing back then was always be at the edge of the platform, i just had to strafe very minimally (1 yard) and then I'm in the water. You take soo few damage from the water that there is no excuse to try and 'jump in the water at the last second'.

As soon as spout is starting, fireblast, during the GCD strafe in the water (1 yard), then resume normal fireballing. When spout is over, fireblast and jump back at the platform, then resume dps.

Oh and don't do fire ward. It eats a GCD for no reason.
Also, while obvious, make sure you fireblast when youre in mid-air from the pushback.

2- I don't know how you manage your scorch debuff, but based on other comments about you using a lot scorch, I'll assume this might not be optimal. You can configure EBB (elk buff bars) so that it only shows fire vulnerability, as well as the time remaining on it. I put mine just over my cast bar, this way when I do stopcasting i can view all the time when its about to run off.

3- Adds. If possible use blastwave/dragon's breath if you can hit 2 targets. Avoid scorch when possible. Personally I have a good idea of what the raid dps is, and how fast mobs are expected to die, based on that information, in relation to the health remaining on the add, ill change target for my fireball spam if it wont land in time. Also, fireblast on adds < 20% is better dps than fireball. I would recommend you use a macro to /targetlasttarget and switch quickly when it gets in execute range for that fireblast.

4- Try this next time: Once you get lurker in execute range, pop a flamecap / combustion / icon. then jump right away in the water (+fireblast). Or fireblast, go in water then pop timers. Fireball spam from there on. You won't die from water damage and will definately avoid knockbacks during the execute phase this way.

Xei · 08/03/07, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Ok, a few things.

1- I can almost guarantee you that TLC is very very bad for 10/48/3. Why so many mages make the same mistake ?
2- I'm not sure why you would wear bracers of havok over the pvp bracers that come with dmg and crit. Even the season one bracers are more interesting. Although I can understand if you don't feel like re-enchanting a new pair of bracers.
3- I'm having a hard time understanding your gemming choices. Its not that the gems are bad, its just that sometimes you seem to go for the socket bonus, other times not. When you're not going for set bonus it feels a bit randomly chosen. If you're going to ignore socket bonuses, I would recommend +9 dmg runed living ruby almost exclusively. Maybe use 4hit/5dmg veiled noble topaz if you are dedicated enough to gear exclusively for bosses (I'll be honest and say I never did, I prefer to swap out +hit gear when that's needed).

I *think* this is directed to me, if not please ignore.

I never use my TLC much at all - for solo farming, trash or AE is the only times. I switch in Scryers Bloodgem for bosses to get myself at the hit cap. Waiting on AH to find me 5,6,7 of Blessings =/

I should go out and get the PvP bracers - but I don't particularly enjoy PvP much anymore. Maybe my battlegroup is just horrible, but I want to cut myself everytime I zone into a PuG BG.

My gems are all over the place ... save for Spellstrike Hood (which I had made sooo long ago that I didn't know you could put any gem in it) the others are just a mix of anything and everything. I love the +9dmg gem, but its something like 70g a pop so I don't see the worth of re-socketing some items (helm for example) which I should be upgrading soon enough.

Urla · 08/10/07, 12:11 PM

Thx for a greate sheet.

I would love to be abel to use it fully..so if it was possible to put this helmet into the sheet ill be very greatefull.

The head
Cowl of the Grand Engineer
Cowl of the Grand Engineer - Items - World of Warcraft

<3 Urla

Aluscia · 08/12/07, 9:30 AM

Thanks again for the spreadsheet!

I've been having fun playing around with various rotations... I recently went 44/17/0 for fun (read - prep for A'lar) and was kinda underwhelmed by the damage output over time... I'm guessing it scales up considerably once you get 2/5 T5 and TLC.

I'm working on scorching less (it's a nervous twitch... don't want to lose those 5 stacks!), but is there any in-game aid you can suggest guys? I see Elk Debuff Bars mentioned by Manly, does anyone else have any suggestions?

Also, for some reason the AB/Scorch/AM Clearcasts rotation says it can go on indefinitely... Is it because of the clearcasting component? It would be nice to see some comparisons in dpm/overall damage time.

Spellstrike set bonus and Darkmoon: Crusade would be nice additions, but I'm not too worried (I can pretty much calc Crusade as a straight 80 as long as I don't have to move much, Spellstrike a little less accurately).

edit - I was digging a little deeper, and it appears that the buffed max mana value is calculating incorrectly, using 933 as base instead of the value from 'Game Stats'!$B$96, which is 1961.

spiderella · 08/13/07, 1:18 AM

Originally Posted by Aluscia

I'm working on scorching less (it's a nervous twitch... don't want to lose those 5 stacks!), but is there any in-game aid you can suggest guys? I see Elk Debuff Bars mentioned by Manly, does anyone else have any suggestions?

Depending on your unit frames . . . I know ag_uf and PitBull will let you filter / organize / scale debuffs. I use PitBull currently and it will sort debuffs by name i believe, I never search for scorch on a mob (make sure you can display the full 40). Having the spiral cooldowns / debuff timers on mob debuffs now is a hugely cool thing.

Another option is DoTimer which handily tracks sheep as well.

Finally, RDX is capable of tracking scorch across multiple mages who have it.

Liebestod · 08/13/07, 1:47 AM

Any chance of seeing a spreadsheet version with the 2.2 changes to AM factored in? I'd be very curious as to what theorycraft says about the DPS of these builds now with various pieces of procs available.

fefe · 08/13/07, 12:05 PM

Hello,

Very nice spreadsheet. Allows for a nice guestimate on a lot of things when I'm at work and unable to log on

Would be helpful to include a couple of trinkets:

[The Lightning Capacitor] and [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]

and a pair of boots to the available options:

[Boots of Blasting]

as those are a quite common for most magi at the current progress level.

Have a good evening