Tuftears

I searched around but couldn't find any spreadsheets already done on the subject -- closest thing I saw was a ret-paladin crusader strike DPS calculator.

Here's the holy spec I'm pondering: 40 holy/21 retribution

Imagining that the paladin has 750 +damage, 400 intellect, about 20% chance to crit with holy spells and 10% chance to crit with melee weapons, this is the spreadsheet I worked up to figure how much damage he should be able to do:

Paladin Holy DPS worksheet for SoR, SoV, and Holy Shock (old version!)
Revised Holy DPS worksheet

It looks to me like a holy shock paladin should be able to hit around 602 DPS using SoR, JoR, and Holy Shock, or 577 DPS with SoV, JoV, and Holy Shock. I didn't work out numbers for combining the two, because that's in a class with working out hunter shot cycles, a lot depends on how well you can actually execute on switching between SoR and SoV.

Questions: are there obvious bugs in the spreadsheet, and does that seem like 'good enough' DPS for a raid, or should I shelf the idea of playing a 'holy DPS paladin'?

upstart feline miscreant (47 feral/14 resto)

 

Dozer

For a raid? No way.

Any spell damage gear + holy build is for grinding and maybe a little pvp, while not losing the amazing healing talents that speccing 41+ ret makes you lose.


Very nice spreadsheet though.

 

Drekor

I'd recommend adding rank 1 consecrate use into your numbers, it's a extraordinarily efficient means of doing damage. Rank 1 retains the full coefficient of 96% over the 8 seconds. So at 750 damage with sanc aura you're looking at an easy 107.8 DPS increase just using it for 15 mana/s.

Ahh I also noted your use of Imp SoR, it only affects the base spell itself, so the 15% increase should come directly after "average damage per hit". In addition why are you factoring in crit to SoR? The seal cannot crit, unless you've merged white damage into it which doesn't appear to be the case.

 

Ragnor

The chief problems with holy pve dps are:
Must fight in melee range thus no range modifier for agro reduction
Must fight in melee range welcome to cleave etc
No passive -threat other than Blessing of Salvation
Horrible mana efficiency
Lack of spell hit on paladin gear

With that said it's probably possible to get over 1k unbuffed +dmg in the game with plate more if you use cloth/leather/mail.

Biggest problem is going to be resists and getting enough spell hit.

Nice spreadsheet, you probably need to factor in resists/spell hit vs lvl 73 mobs and some measure of mana usage or "time till out of mana" with a standard rotation of holy shock every 15sec, consercrate every 10sec, jor, reseal every 8sec.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Tuftears

Fixed per your comments, thanks very much, Drekor!

SoR actually drops below SoV in DPS with the revised model, which makes it a decision whether the mob is going to last long enough to 5-stack SoV for any reasonable amount of time, which seal to use. Also, improved SoR loses a lot of value as a talent, in my opinion. Which is just as well, I can take the points out of that and put it into Light's Grace.

SoR DPS goes up to 546, SoV DPS goes up to 596... That's getting more reasonable.

upstart feline miscreant (47 feral/14 resto)

 

Ragnor

Not sure if you considered it this way or not but remember imp sor applies before +dmg from gear and holy guidance. Yes I know it's stupid and makes this 5pt talent near worthless.

Edit: Ah I see it's been mentioned

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Ragnor

This is how spell hit works for holy spells as far as I'm aware:

Spell hit rating: 12.5 hit rating = 1% hit
Maximum chance to hit: 99%

70 mob - 96% (37.8 hit rating for 99% hit)
71 mob - 95% (50.4 hit rating for 99% hit)
72 mob - 94% (63 hit rating for 99% hit)
73 mob - 83% (201.6 hit rating for 99% hit)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Maddness

Unless, like a Shadowpriest, there's an additional benefit to having a Holy Paladin DPS, anything under probably 800 - 900 theoretical DPS isn't going to be worth the loss of what is currently the best healing spec in the game at this point.

Prot Pallies seem to be the only real viable alternative to a Holy specced Healer at this point, and they struggle just because of how far behind a warrior their base stats start.

http://hosted.filefront.com/rroguee

 

Ragnor

Fortunately 40/0/21 is still a very strong healing spec, 38/0/23 even stronger. This assumes you already have 1 kings paladin in the raid which you would since almost every paladin is 41/20/0 atm (even I am 41/20/0 atm).

I think a holy/ret paladin with a gear switch to good +dmg gear is going to probably do alot more damage then a resto druid or holy/disc priest with dps gear on.

It's just added flexibility for trash, easy bosses or areas of an instance were you don't need all x of you healers healing and where you can't be bothered waiting for a healer to sub out for dedicated dps.

Grab your http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19169 and keep JoW up do 500ish dps, throw spot heals/bop's/cleanse. It's probably more effective than standing idle at max range with a tank targeted waiting for them or something in the raid to take damage on non healing intensive encounters or trash.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Thelyna

On a random semi-related note, I'm currently ret spec (12/0/49) with warrior gear (str/ap/crit) for soloing/easy instances and happy enough with how it works out (although my shadow priest alt makes my paladin look silly, but that's another story). My question then is:
1: how effective is +dmg gear for raw damage done? (I realise overall utility of a holy-damage paladin is far higher than that of a warriordin with 4k of blue rage, but my actual damage done is low enough as is.)
2: what stats do I look for for really good holy damage gear?
3: 2H or sword/board? I guess this one comes down to holy/ret or pure holy, since with SoC slower is better and with SoR +dmg is king?

 

Drekor

Well I don't have the numbers with me atm, I'll see if I can dig through my notes and find them, although I think they're pre-BC numbers so I may to update but it actually works out relatively close.

Ideally paladin gear would be high +damage with lots of crit(as a ret spec) which simply does not exist well in current itemization so you get forced down 1 of 2 avenues, one is holy spec using the added spell of holy shock to gain increases from your +damage or go down ret and gain the use of vengeance. I made a suggestion a long time ago to blizzard about making a token based system for epic drops that you gave to a crafter to customize armor based on their item value so you can toss whatever stats you wanted on there up to the item value limitation implemented by the token drop... would work nicely, shame it's likely to much work to implement already.

Stam, Int, +damage are your main stats. Spell crit and spell hit are secondary, both are very exceptional for dealing holy DPS though, the spell crit will help you get more consistant burst and spell hit is even more effective then spell crit because of our lack of crit damage modifiers. Problem comes with your melee+SoR needs melee hit as well, so often your best to focus on a certain area, which imo is the straight +damage.

You pretty much got it, +damage is king. There are 2h weapons with +damage on them and it's important to evaluate the overall DPS provided from white damage as well as the added damage gained on your holy damage from the +damage on the weapon, as well as the melee mitigation of your target. In the end... you want both, if you run out of mana using a 41 DPS caster weapon is no damn good to you.

This is true, luckily us paladins are sneaky bastards... but my limited testing has shown consecration to have no level based resist check, maybe because it has no initial application like a traditional DoT, so it only faces normal resistance based resists, of which their is virtually none against holy.

 

Ragnor

It all depends on how good the itemization is. Take for example 5/5 T2.5 (Avenger set). It was fairly well itemized it had a really nice mix of crit, ap, +dmg. Compared to wearing all warrior gear you lost a little AP but gained alot of int and +dmg. In the end it was superior, at the time people rated 1 spell damage about equal to 1 AP.

Strength/Attack power is cheaper than spell damage in item points generally so it's easier to stack but if you can get a large chunk of spell damage from a hybrid set al la Avengers (perhaps full Arena set) while maintaining crit and not loosing too much AP it will come out ahead.

The T4 ret set fails because it has no way near enough crit. Full arena ret set vs non set warrior gear would be an interesting comparision imo. However the arena sets "waste" item points on resilience and stm which you simply don't need for pve dps.

Bottom line there's no decent pve ret hybrid set in the game currently, hence you're probably better off stacking warrior gear.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

◊ Cathela

The Ret arena set has no resilience on it at all aside from the one set bonus, and the stamina isn't terribly high either.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

• Daler

To get back on topic, there's no room for a holy pally in a raid who's just there to DPS. That said, with 3 pure healers in a Kara run, I'd have no problem with him switching to +dmg gear for trash pulls if we have good crowd control. But on bosses, there's no way I'm going to waste one of the best healing specs in the game on mediocre DPS.

 

◊ Anias

I believe this was assumed. That said, on boss fights like maulgar (which I hope everyone wanting to contribute a "I wouldn't do blah, you shouldn't either" type opinion has seen) there are definitely places you can put a holy paladin to good use as a healer, that he will at some point in the fight have nothing much to do (because his tank's add is dead) at which point figuring out how he can best contribute damage output to the raid is useful.

I think every holy paladin in creation will admit that they are a better healer than damage dealer, what is valuable to learn here is in the cases where they cannot contribute anything but overheal, how can they best adapt to provide damage.

I tank seer in fury dps gear, because I know I won't be tanking for the majority of the encounter. It would not be unreasonable for a holy paladin to be solo healing me with spell damage gear on for the same reasons. Especially if we had a heavy paladin turnout. In that event, I'd like that paladin to know what the heck they're doing, so bravo to the OP for working it out.

I doubt the intent of the thread was "Holy paladin DPS cycles vs patchwerk, omg I can top the meters".

 

Fiola

Something I would suggest for your SoR section is to convert everything to DPS. (instead of damage per proc) You can calculate the base DPS of SoR by equipping a weapon, looking at the damage range for SoR, and dividing the range by your weapon speed. The higher number is the base DPS for a 2H, the lower number is the base DPS for a 1H. To figure out the contribution of +dmg to SoR DPS, just use the DPS coefficients - ~9% for 1h, 10.8% for 2h - since weapon speed doesn't matter, including it in the calculations only makes things more confusing.



Don't forget the higher base damage and slightly higher SoR scaling with a 2h weapon.


Using my max +dmg gear (around 450~500 +dmg, 257 JotC), my 1h SoR adds around 100 DPS. Each SoR proc is around 270 damage on my LC exalted 1h, and the weapon has a 2.7 AS.

In the same gear, swapping in the LC exalted polearm (which has 0 +dmg), I would get about 10~20 more SoR DPS than with the +dmg 1h weapon. (Though it helps I have 2H specialization) The trade-off is that you lose some JoR damage, since no 2h that we can use has as much +dmg as a 1h weapon.




One last note on mana efficiency: Paladin DPS can be as mana efficient as you want it. SoR lasts for 30 seconds. It costs 260 mana, and adds 100~ DPS. If you run the seal for 29 seconds.. you get 2900 damage done at 10 DPM. (And throw in a 600~700 judgement for 140-ish mana) If you let spirit tick a few times, throw in BoW - you recover the mana used for the seal. Yes, that eats into your total DPS ... but opportunity cost of mana is removed. (Compare that to a Druid or Priest healer trying to throw a Moonfire or Smite in between heals. It costs valuable healing mana, puts them into the 5SR for little damage done, and is thus "unsustainable". The priest equivalent of wanding wouldn't add as much damage)

 

Nite_Moogle

Still waiting for my 300 +dmg two handed axe to use for DPSing. I can't believe there's no item like this, but there's Feral AP gear sucking up drop slots on bosses in almost every zone.

 

Fiola

Let's see who that would be useful for...

Hunters? Nope, all AP based now.
Shaman? An elemental shammy would have to go down enhancement to use it; whereas an enhancement shammy focuses on physical stats, generally (AP/crit).
Warriors? Lawl.
Paladins? It's alright for SoR-purposes, I guess. (Trade 50~ weapon DPS for 300 +dmg? Seems high when looking at the staff equivalents.) SoC does make use of the weapon DPS though, and the trade doesn't seem to give much of an advantage compared to existing itemization, using what's already out there.


Create a weapon drop that is useful for half a class? Not seeing it.


I imagine Blizzard thinks you should be looking for the 2h weapons with +dmg tacked on. Blessed Hammer of the Naaru, the various blue instance drops...

 

Nite_Moogle

0/11/50 is a pretty solid healing spec that still lets you swing a big stick for a passing semblance of farming ability and autoattack DPS. Over-reliance on melee stats for a deep Enhancement build is a result of the other weapon buffs sucking horribly in comparison to Windfury, if they became worth a crap such a weapon would be useful (not that I expect this to ever happen).

http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filt...97;crs=1;crv=0
Cough.

It's more effective for me to DPS/off-heal as holy spec with a Greatsword of Horrid Dreams and a shield than a comparable-ilvl 90 DPS weapon like the Plasma Rat Scythe simply because so much of my damage comes from spell power, to say nothing of what using a pure DPS weapon does for my pinch healing ability. Any 2h weapon with high weapon DPS and token amounts of +dmg is a complete joke and is useful to no one since a full melee stat loaded weapon is more total DPS class for a real melee class, and it's not enough to matter for a hybrid. I don't see why we can't have a mace or axe at the other end of the spectrum with a bundle of +dmg for a few more white damage DPS over a one-handed weapon/shield with roughly the same stats.

 

Fiola

And said shaman can use staves? (Which actually end up with about as much +dmg as 1h weapons, but with more stats)


Right, you have an alternative with the 1h/shield. (And the weapon DPS gain going from 1h/shield to a +dmg 2h would be around 20 - mitigated by armor. +dmg gain would probably be small or nothing, if stave/dagger itemization is an indication of how Blizz wants things)

Take away weapons with FAP, and what do druids get to use? Nothing.

 

Symbul

In other words you want to be able to use Staves.

 

Khaelarys

bah. commoner weapons.

 

Zraknul

For ret or for holy dps? With ret and a SoC/JoC/CS cycle it works out to ~70 AP = 50 spell damage. But if you look at the basic vendor gems, you can get 4 str gems, and 5 spell damage gems, or like 8.8 w/ str talent vs 5 spell damage. Itemization favors AP > spell damage.

For holy, spell damage is the biggest stat, as it scales extremely big with L1 consecration. With 10 second judgment, physical crit is the next biggest stat; assumes you're using a 2h. I'm getting numbers in around 9.4 spell = 22 crit rating, 1 spell damage = 4.4 ap, 1 physical crit rating = 2.2 spell crit rating. Till my farming alt gets up there, holy farming for me . For sustained farming, rank 1 consecration and SoR/JoR looping with blessing of wisdom, use free crit to heal up to full with a gear swap.

 

Tuftears

I updated the spreadsheet based on Fiola's suggestion that I show the numbers as DPS, rather than as damage-per-hit. This looks a lot more readable!

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...YUsFx7Ka2stABw

I threw in a libram, since I recalled the Libram of Zeal will add 47 to the spell damage of JoCrusader... I'm not sure if this gets multiplied by Improved SoCr, but I decided to assume that it was.

Not sure why, but in this calculation SoV fell behind SoR again.

As for 'why, God, why are you rolling a holy-specced paladin for DPS', it's kind of like tinkering with an old VW engine, I'm curious to see how much mileage I can get out of a build that really isn't, under normal circumstances, intended to do heavy DPS.

upstart feline miscreant (47 feral/14 resto)

 

Fiola

I think your original spreadsheet didn't include base JoR damage in the JoR calulation, which made it look worse than JoV when it should have been on par. (SoR matches SoV around 1k~ +dmg)

How are you considering the effects of spell crit? Spells crit for 150% damage, while I think your spreadsheet treats them as 200% damage crits (it seems to assume 1% crit => 1% more damage, when it's 0.5% more damage)

Consecrate's coefficient is around 95%, but you seem to be using a lower value.


Aside from that, the spreadsheet's math looks good, though it's a *little* hard to read. (Different number of significant figures in each cell, coefficients are not clearly labeled - should have seperately labeled "Per proc/cast" and "DPS" coefficients, IMO)