Have any of you re-done the theorycrafting based on the new 2.1 items that are being rolled out?

I was incredibly surprised by the changes to my T4/T5-level gear on the PTR over the last three days. Essentially, it became gear I wanted ... as compared to me thinking that Primal Mooncloth and Whitemend would last through T6 and beyond. I was impressed.

To the above posters:
1) I state that Illumination needed to be nerfed.
2) I state that the overheal portion of mana regeneration needed to be nerfed.

I do not agree that both of these changes, at the same time, were necessary. And I am betting that it is identical to the Blizzard cock-up with feral druid tanks in the previous patch. Let's nerf ... everything at once. Oh, wups, that means that ferals can't even generate threat. Let's retract one of those changes and make their threat-moves in bear have a base +threat amount. And let's do it as a hotfix the day AFTER the patch goes live.

Paladins were OPd. You all knew it. We all knew it. Priests were seriously pissed because instead of being *the* healers, like our class theoretically is supposed to be, we were being outclassed by paladins, would could spend less talent points for more raid utility and synergy AND sheer healing power. However, none of us seriously ever debated nerfing you. We just wanted to be buffed up to your levels.

I'm hoping that Blizzard will settle on something around 70-75% for Illumination, and leave the overheal portion of the mana return nerfed. That should bring paladins down to just over/around/under priest levels, dependent on gear.

And that brings me back to my question -- has anyone done a serious look at the new gear? A couple of paladins from my guild have been OOHing and AAHing over the changes, and are quite impressed by some of the choices now available. Mp5 is back in, but WITH spell crit, so it's a hybrid situation that still allows for the power of the holy tree to shine through.

Cheers.

While the amount of MP5 and spell crit on gear was increased, it was in the same proportion t already there, or even leaning heavier towards crit. It's pretty clear, and has been shown earlier in this thread, that mp5 is highly favorable to spell crit with 60% illumination in terms of item budgeting.

For example Justicar Raiment in Live [PTR]:
137 [163] stamina (+19%)
145 [164] intellect (+13%)
347 [396] +healing (+14%)
55 [67] spell crit (+22%)
19 [22] mana regen (+15%)

Crystalforge Raiment:
117 [169] stamina (+44%)
136 [151] intellect (+11%)
365 [461] +healing (+26%)
100 [127] spell crit (+27%)
26 [29] mana regen (+11%)

So, yes, the gear is better by virtue of having more stats, but worse in terms of stat allocation.

Just keep in mind, once again, that there is the conception that priests are the primary healers, you off-spec is also the most coveted support class by anyone who has mana (which also happens to be top-notch DPS). It's not really feasible to say Illumination was fine as it was, but just given what priests are able to contribute in 2 different specs versus paladins (how many raids use prot or ret paladins, let alone 2-3 like shadow priests?) Paladin healing vis-a-vis other healing classes (all of whom have very viable, synergistic raid off-specs) was not that bad.

The irony about this nerf and/or change is that this essentially frees all Paladins from going more than 25 points into Holy as the "premiere" raid spec.

Anything past 25 points is completely unnecessary as HL is only an "emergency" heal now, and if you are in a situation where you need to chain cast it, you are chugging super manas anyways.

So now on test I currently have a 26/35/0 version of me, and a 41/20 version, and I can't really say that I miss anything except for Holy Shock for pvp purposes, and hey who knows Holy Shield wouldn't be that bad vs Rogues/Warriors in Arena, not to mention Felhunters. All I have to hope for now is that they buff Holy Shield to 75% block like it should be, and the Hybrid tank-healer would be a reality .

I don't want to be "free" of having to spec into the deep holy talents. If we presopose that you are correct that anything beyond 25 points is pointless (which I do not), then that only goes to show how backwards the coming changes are. A spec should be significantly enhanced if not defined by its deep talents.

The reason I dont agree with you is because getting through those "emergency" situations is the difference between success and failure on most any new/difficult encounter. If you can't effectivly contribute in those situations, then you should switch to another role entirely and free up a raid slot for another healer.

There's plenty of reason to go more than 25 and it can be summed up in two words:
Lights Grace

It's the best talent in the tree for pvp and pve healing throughput and hands down a lifesaver on many many occasions.

I disagree with with HL being an emergency heal only, fol spam isn't going to cut it in alot of situations in pve and pvp.

There's still a lot of utility to be had from going deep into the tree. Light's Grace was already pointed out, which boosts the amount of healing you can pump out with Holy Light by 20%. Holy Guidance boosts both healing and damage. Divine Illumination still boosts casting efficiency and helps the healing paladin stretch their mana reserves. And even with less mana from spell-crits, there's still the benefit of the extra 50% healing done on every critical you gain through Holy Power.

I may not be able to end fights at 100% mana in 5-mans anymore, but Holy's still a great spec for any paladin who wants to heal.

5 heals in 10 seconds instead of 4 heals. So boosts you 25%

I mean you could skip all the holy light improving talents and just be a FoL bot but that's incredibly boring and pretty much ineffective. With the scaling of big heals and the damage being taken by tanks in raids in 6sec you could cast 4x 1500 fol's or 3x 4500 holy lights pretty huge difference there in healing power.

You can replace a FoL bot with a HoT from a tree druid thesedays.

I'm going to have to weigh in and say no on this. Holy Light is no longer a viable heal spell outside of "Oh crap tank is really low", and I suppose DI spam. It costs way too much mana to keep up for any significant amount of time, and if you cast 2 max HL's (since you want HP/S) that in a best case scenario (Lurker Libram) if you don't crit is still 1626 mana. With the current duration of encounters, and how much longer they are going to get - I can't really justify spending that kind of mana unless it is absolutely impervative (solo healing Karathress tank, Void Reaver trash solo tank healing) . And this is *with* Philo Stone/Fel Mana or Super Mana Chugging and a Flask of Resto.

Come to think of it, Paladin healing feels exactly like playing a Priest pre +heal nerf . Except you replace HR2 with FOL. Not very exciting, but nothing is in the world of min/max.

I realize that this crushes our HP/S, but realistlically this is what was being targeted anyways, along with our longevity. At the moment I'm fol spamming with a R4? or R5 I forget, its healing for around 2100 or so HL every 10-14 seconds to keep LG up, and max rank when it is absolutely (as in no other heals incoming to the main tank) needed.

I really wish we were getting some kind of new heal to compensate for the blow to our single target longevity and HP/S, yes we were OP but only in that one limited role, whereas our Chain Healing Shamans are pretty much destroying everyone on raids with Healing Done, OH% and they seem to be having fun while doing so.


HL pre Illum changes was well over 85% of my healing done on all raids. I've since adjusted to the point where FOL is now closer to 60% of my healing, and I really can't justify getting LG for any real situation currently. I've already regeared from 40mp5/1200 heal/29% crit to over 120mp5/1500 heal/22% crit once I get gems and enchants.

I just need to replace my crappy T4 gloves (probably Gaunts of Renewed Hope with dual Nightseye until I can get T5) with 0 MP5 and get my 2pc T5 asap .


New Topic : Meta Gem. I searched, can't find anything regarding meta gem useage, and am wondering what to go for. I can't access WoWhead at work, but I know there is a meta gem that restores mana - anyone have any experience with it? Is the 26 heal -2% threat or -half cast time meta gem better? I bit my tongue and finally looted Chess Legs, so I have available slots and can slightly customize. Thoughts? What have you all tried?

HL mana cost went 'up' from (manacost - manacost*crit rating) to (manacost - manacost*critrating*.6). That's a 40% reduction in the reduction of your spellcost, or with 30% spellcrit your holy lights now go from costing 70% of basecost to 80% of spellcost. That hardly makes the spell impossible to use in situations where you could use it before.

Shadow priests are wanted in 25man raids.
Feral druids are wanted in 25man raids.
Enhancement chaman are wanted in 25man raids.
Non-holy paladins ... ?

Paladins are the closest thing to a pure healing class in wow, and this is the same stupid mantra that many warriors fall back on:
Priests are the healers.
Warriors are the tanks.

Paladins were a great single target healing class with a complete lack of healing flexibility, there are no proactive heals (PoM, PW:S), no heal over times (Renew, Rejuv, Lifebloom), a single, pathetic instant heal, no group heal. We were/are fabulous at what we do because it is all we do.

The paladin healing nerf will help exaclty no-one other than those paladins who want to raid without speccing deep holy.

I agree with those who say the illumination nerf is a failing of itemization and not the talent. The whole idea behind replacing spell crit %age with spell crit rating was to stop people stacking 30-40% spell crit, and yet here we are already pushing those numbers (partly due to 11% spell crit from talents). The illumination change invalidates large portions of the upper holy tree, taking us back to the pre 1.9 position where we do not need to go deeper than 20 points in holy to pick up all the essential healing talents for raiding without giving us a viable raid role other than healing.

Re-itemization may help restore some of our lost healing power but it will do little to make the upper holy talents look any more interesting.

But given that using all that you were obviously having a lot higher throughput and longevity than any other healer.
If you have greater mana efficiency than any other healer (pre-nerf anyway) and you are running out of mana as fast as any other healer, then it is obvious that you are massively outperforming all the other non-paladin healers in your guild, which is obviously what this nerf is meant to adress.

Hopefully the increase to raid items and the increase in raid dps makes it so that raids don't have to quite minimize the numbers of healers as much as they need too do now, to fit in every ounce of dps imaginable.

You may have also noticed they lowered the requirements to '2 gems' instead of the old '5 gems'.

I'll reply with a qoute from wowhead concerning Insightful Earthstorm Diamond:
In my case, this would be somewhere between 10-20mp5, which makes it alot better then any other healing meta gem available.

Dumb question but can the mana gain effect crit? I don't think i've seen anyone with this meta ever so I don't have a reference to ask :>

The bolded part is what is important... this is the entire purpose of a Paladin on a raid. We bring buffs, yes - but every class does. We had awesome throughput on a single target with good longevity.

We don't have any HoTs, no Pre-emptive abilities, no flexibility in any situation except with the abysmally small and inefficient holy shock.

We don't get a 25% armor buff on crits, we don't share the ridiculousness of Earth Shield, Mana Tide Totem and Chain Heal. We have no source of mana regeneration outside of BoWisdom and Illum (which is too streaky to rely on.) and benefit little to none from Innervate. And while I realize how limited the application of Shadowfiend is - on most fights you can still garner a decent amount of mana on top of having the best Mana returned per point of Spirit as a Priest.

Don't get me wrong we are still solid single target healers with great longevity, with a chance to have spike HP/S at very high levels for limited periods of time at great cost to our longevity. Its just now I feel our specialization is at the point where we could be a hinderance to a raid, since a Priest with ~15% spellcrit and casting lower ranks of Gheal are arguably better single target healers due to Inspiration and superior mana regen.

I have never seen mana pots crit including VT mana gains. However health pots, healthstones, the 3/3 FSW set (this is being changed) and similar healing effects will crit according to your spell crit rate.

That meta is likely the best Pally PvE meta, and the Destro Diamand (14 spell crit and 1% spell reflect) is likely the best Pally PvP meta.

As I've said before, comparing BoP and PW:S is really apples and oranges. There are limitations to both that certainly constrict their usefulness, but each has its own applicability. You can't BoP a tank, it won't always save a cloth wearer if there is any magical damage floating around, whereas PW:S might. PW:S has a less drastic affect, but has a very short cooldown to match, and much broader uses - and thats fine.

Don't forget to neglect the amount of MP5 Priests are sitting at now a days, along with their levels of spirit and regen inside of the FSR due to set bonuses and/or meditation. Priests have two avenues for regen, Paladins have one.

Also I fear you neglect to mention the huge benefits of inspriation for single target healing, along with Renew. Granted inspiration doesn't work for every fight (Astromancer, Hydross, Demon phase Leothras) it still is a very good talent that no Priest should pass up if they consider raiding in any capacity.

Shield and PW:S have two entirely different roles, PW:S is still the best "oh crap" button for everything, including the main tank. BoP is a good oh crap button, but dodgy for use on the MT - I can only think of a handful of situations where another Paladin in my guild or myself have used it on the MT in the past on purpose. (Removing Sunder stacks during earthquakes on Doomwalker for one.)

BoP is still limited in application - whereas PW:S isn't, also PW:S can *never* overheal, granted it can't crit but it is still a very good ability that is never marginalized by other healers since it is a unique ability that no other class can reproduce. Sure I can toss out a holy shock kind of like PW:S as a retroactive ability, but this is where PW:S shines in that you can use it pre-emptively before a big nuke or strike.

I personally have shifted away from Holy Light as my main heal, and as I said earlier it took me a few raids to adjust and regear, but I've made the shift already so 2.1 will come and go, and I won't even notice a thing. I don't mind this, we needed the nerf, but christ we are *very* one dimensional and *very* boring post 2.1 - that is my only real gripe. Itemization will never be good enough so there is no reason to complain about that. I just want more compelling gameplay for the Paladin class

I had this metagem for a while and never noticed it restore anything other than 300 mana, so I'm fairly confident it can't crit.

I completely agree with most of the things you are saying, but I'm a bit confused with this issue. I see it appear very often in complaints regarding 2.1, but perhaps I'm missing something. I've always itemized my gear to be balanced. I was never a huge proponent of stacking spell crit, although I agree it was obviously powerful. In retrospect, I'm one of the lucky ones who missed the boat, as now I don't have to completely reitemize; perhaps a few gems, but nothing significant.

So what confuses me is the contention that we are NOW one-dimensional, whereas before the nerf we were not. Like I stated, I was not a crit pally, so I may not understand the playstyle, but it seems like pre-nerf we would be far more one-dimensional than post-nerf. Holy Light spamming seems far more boring than having to differentiate between Flash of Light, Holy Light, adjusting ranks, etc.... In it's most simple form, isn't 2 button spamming more interesting than single button spamming?

Well before we could blindly toss Max Rank HL's on everything and everyone and achieve insane levels of healing with 7-8k crits (10k+ on locks!) left and right. To me big numbers are cool, but I have ADD and am considered largely to be retarded by guildmates, so ymmv.