[Druid] 2.1 Changes - Page 3

dukes · 04/14/07, 3:16 PM

It was a bad example (except that you can see both trinkets are on cooldown). The problem is it was Test server so my UI was a bit screwed up so it took me a minute to sort out expanding the combat log window. By my calcs I was on 1551 +healing at the time.

It is a very awesome fix. If you use the Prayerbook for example, in Tree a lifebloom costs ~155 mana, which would allow xxx*7 ticks of bloom. If you ignore the last tick because you're always refreshing it:
600 per tick = 27 healing/mana
650 per tick = ~29
700 per tick = ~32
750 per tick = ~34

That's some pretty insane efficiency no matter which way you look at it.

Zraknul · 04/14/07, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

The Paladin nerf means they will just have to think about healing instead of spamming FoL the whole fight and taking the occasional pot, the role they once had will now be taken by HoTs thanks to the awsome power of lifebloom.

Having HoTs as the primary role on 'topping the tank up' gives them alot more potential because before it was completly negated by just having Paladins instead.

Paladins, Priests, & Shamans will still be there healing the tank as normal despite whatever changes there may be, and for Paladins before, the ToL bonus was more than likely wasted as overhealing so yeah..

FoL spam wasn't hit very hard by this nerf. As far as pure regen terms crit vs mp5, crit goes worse than mp5 to even poorer. The nerf hurts considerably more when using HL. You may see more FoL spam since HL got hit that much harder.

If you check out the paladin 2.1 thread, post 20 talks about the regen from our T4 helm (24 crit rating) pre-nerf, half these values for post nerf.

Spamming HL: (300 seconds / 2.0 cast time) * 0.0109 spell crit * 840 mana = 1368
Spamming FoL: (300 seconds / 1.5 cast time) * 0.0109 spell crit * 180 mana = 391
If it was itemized with MP5 instead of spell crit (24 spell crit rating = 10 MP5):

All the time: 300 seconds * (10 MP5 / 5 seconds) = 600

Zeln · 04/14/07, 8:55 PM

Originally Posted by Morghus

How much is 9 crit rating in %, and can that compete with the Shred-idol in party-dps sufficiently for me to use it over the other?

The fact that they're adding it makes me happy, because it shows they're listening to the druid community. Good stuff.

22 crit rating at 70 for 1% crit, so 9 crit is .41 crit to everyone getting the lotp buff

Tierce · 04/14/07, 11:24 PM

Curious if anyone has SS or numbers for their tanking set before the bear form armor nerf so they can compare it to now. Finally got a character copied over to test today and I think my armor is even higher now than it was before the nerf even though I'm wearing pretty much the same gear. Seems like blizzard is just going in circles with this class.

Kilmarnok · 04/15/07, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Branar

Is there something I'm missing here, or can Nature's Grace not possibly be triggered by Cyclone (since it can't crit)?

I believe it is a typo and they meant to say that it would only affect the casting time of Cyclone.

What I've always wondered is when the developers plan on replacing Brambles with something more useful, or just doing away with it entirely.

Tuftears · 04/16/07, 8:57 PM

I went over the numbers for Lifebloom as follows:

243 base heal/7 seconds
600 heal
220 mana cost
+10% healing from Gift of Nature
+1200 healing

Total healing if you let it bloom: (243 + 600 + 1200) * 1.1 = 2247.3 (10.215 health/mana, 321 health/second)
Total healing if you 3-stack it and roll it every 6 seconds: (243 + 600) * (6/7) * 1.1 * 3 = 2384.5 (10.84 health/mana, 397 health/second)

Edit: needed to multiply 3-stacking by 6/7 to account for the 'lost' tick

Are my numbers right?

If that's the case, I still think that single lifeblooms will be superior for healing in parties (people won't need the extra healing) but for keeping a single tank alive, you could get some nice added throughput. The downside is that you'd have to do Lifebloom, HT, wait, Lifebloom, HT, wait, because two HTs (6 secs) and the GCD from Lifebloom would mean the last Lifebloom would burst before your next Lifebloom was cast.

Solstice · 04/16/07, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Tuftears

Are my numbers right?

Not sure, I don't think you've incorporated the +healing into your examples correctly, indeed you don't seem to have included it at all in the second example. Also you seem to have added the heal from the bloom before multiplying by the 3 stacks. Not to mention that applying 3 stacks costs 3 times the mana. But what can we expect from an upstart feral miscreant?

Originally Posted by Wowwiki

Both the HoT and end heal gain 46% of your +healing.

243 base heal/7 seconds
600 heal
220 mana cost
+10% healing from Gift of Nature
+1200 healing

Total healing if you let it bloom: ((243 + 0.46 * 1200) + (600 + 0.46 * 1200)) * 1.1 = 2141.7 (9.7 h/m, 306.0 h/s)
Total healing if you 3-stack it and roll continuously every 6 seconds: ((243 + 0.46 * 1200) * 1.1 * (6/7) * 3) = 2248.7 (3.4 h/m, 374.8 h/s)

However the efficiency isn't as bad as it looks as this assumes you never let it bloom. Not much point in modeling 3 stacks -> bloom but obviously the longer you keep a 3 stack running the less efficient LB becomes.
These calculations assume of course that you've gone for an HT build. If you're specced into ToL the case for stacking LB looks a bit more favorable.

243 base heal/7 seconds
600 heal
176 mana cost (220 base - -20% from ToL form)
+10% healing (Gift of Nature)
+20% of + healing on HoT effects (Empowered Rejuv)
1200 healing

Total healing if you let it bloom: [(243 + (0.46 * (1200 * 1.2))) + (600 + 0.46 * 1200))] * 1.1 = 2263.1 (12.8 h/m, 323.3 h/s)
Total healing if you 3-stack it and roll continuously every 3 seconds: [(243 + (0.46 * (1200 * 1.2))) * 3 * 6/7] * 1.1 = 2561.0 (4.85 h/m, 426.8 h/s)

Once again note that the 2nd calculation neglects the final bloom which would add another 1267 healed when LB is eventually allowed to expire.
Some conclusions from this:
- Assuming you have ToL, the relative efficiency of rolling 3stacks of LB compared to single LB's improves with more + healing gear.
- Rolling 3 stacks of LB provide more healed per second than single LB's but only at some point after the 3rd stack has been applied. (haven't worked out exactly when but I'd guess after around 20seconds)
- Single LB will always be much more efficient.

SavoryBeetle · 04/17/07, 12:19 AM

First, with 1201 +healing on my 1/46/14 Feral druid, my lifebloom heals for 899 from the HoT portion and 1115 for the instant portion. This suggests that the HoT portion receives about 52% of my +healing, and the final portion receives 42.8% of it. I am not wearing the Idol of the Emerald Queen, and none of the talents should affect the amount healed. It seems like the Wowwiki figures are off. Could someone else test this?

Second, using the original figures, and assuming that you have 3 stacks of lifebloom up already, you only need to cast it once every 6 seconds to maintain the HoT. So, your efficiency with the listed stats (1200 +healing and Gift of Nature) is 2248.7/220 = 10.22 hp/m. Throw in the other healing talents, and you're efficiency hits 2561/176 = 14.55 h/m.

Assuming you spam lifebloom at the beginning of the fight to get it rolling, and each tic of each application of lifebloom heals for (243 + 0.46 * 1200) * 1.1 / 7 = 124.9:

Lifebloom(1)
125
Lifebloom(2)
250
250
Lifebloom(3)
375x6

The total amount healed is 2875 (or 4.36 h/m). However, by the end of the next two stack, the total amount healed is 125+250*2 + 375*12 = 5125 (5.82 h/m) and 125+250*2 + 375*18 = 7375 (6.7 h/m). Using the lower city prayerbook to start gives 4.84 h/m, 6.47 h/m, and 7.29 h/m (220 mana for the last refresh).

If you slowly stack lifebloom, you get the following numbers:

Lifebloom(1)
125x6
Lifebloom(2)
250x6
Lifebloom(3)
375x6

At the end of the second cycle, you healed for 2250 (5.68 h/m with the prayerbook). By the end of the third cycle, you doubled the amount of healing you've done, with 7.58 h/m efficiency. Higher efficiency overall, but with a longer ramp up time.

CasT · 04/17/07, 6:10 AM

According to the druid wiki Here Lifebloom uses 0.52*+healing on the tick and 0.46*+healing on the bloom.

This got me thinking on the best idol to use concering lifebloom.

This makes me wonder since the use of the emerald queen is bigger than the epic Arena Tenacity but can be dispelled will be even better since it now will stack in thrice.

[Wrathful Gladiator's Idol of Tenacity]
600 + [ ( 1000(+heal) + 80(idol) * 0.46(coef)] * 1.1 (GoN) = 1206 (w/o idol) 1166 => adds 40

[Idol of the Emerald Queen]
273 + ( 1000(+heal) + 88(idol)) * 0.52(coef) * 1.2(emp.rej) * 1.1(GoN) = 150 (w/o idol) 141 w/o adds 9*7 = 63

Adding a 7% crit rate to the end heal would make it: 1247 adding 81

Addin 81 on every bloom, or 63 added on every full, singel cycle of LB. The tenacuty idol wins.

But adding 5/5 subtly(30% dispel resists) and 3 stacks of lifebloom having : 189 healing and dispelling one stack will take the same amount of time for you to add three periodic heals.

Note: The formulas above doesn't use gon on the whole part of the Lifebloom, but it's as close to my in game numbers I see; which is kind of strange.

Tuftears · 04/17/07, 8:34 PM

Originally Posted by Solstice

Also you seem to have added the heal from the bloom before multiplying by the 3 stacks.

To clarify, 600 in there was half of 1200 - I was going on the dev statement that lifebloom gives 50% to HoT and 50% to bloom. What I'm interested in is when it makes sense to keep rolling a Lifebloom on a target.

For efficiency, single-stacked lifebloom seems always preferable.

For HPS... Might make sense to roll it. I can't think of too many situations where that's true though.

Which begs the question, why did the devs feel that it was useful to change lifebloom as they did?

Shmanel · 04/17/07, 9:21 PM

Slight aside from the normal theorycraft, but can anyone tell / point me to info about the new flight form quest? From that reward SS it seems to end in Heroic Sethekk, but is that it?

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled number crunching.

Solstice · 04/17/07, 9:29 PM

Ah good point Duskbeetle.

So once you have 3 stacks applied, refreshing LB after the 6th tick provides more h/s for better h/m.

Using the same figures but assuming 3 stacks of lifebloom are already up, and using the + healing ratios from the druid wiki the figures look like this:

GoN, + 1200 healing

3 Stack
((243 + (0.52 * 1200)) * 1.1 * 3) / 7 = 408.7 hp/second
(408.7 * 6) / 220 = 11.1 hp/mana

Single
((243 + (0.52 * 1200) + 600 + (0.46 * 1200)) * 1.1) / 7 = 317.3 hp/second
(317.3 * 7) / 220 = 10.1 hp/second

GoN, + 1200 healing, ToL and ER

Single
((243 + (0.52 * 1200 * 1.2) + 600 + (0.46 * 1200)) * 1.1) / 7 = 336.9 hp/second
(336.9 * 7) / 176 = 13.4 hp/second

3 Stack
((243 + (0.52 * 1200 * 1.20)) * 1.1 * 3) / 7 = 467.6 hp/second
(467.6 * 6) / 176 = 15.9 hp/mana

• Vykromond · 04/18/07, 4:21 AM

Hmm-mm-mm. They're dropping +hit off the feral t4 helm? Is it... is it any good without the +hit? (For cat, that is.)

EDIT: Ah, okay. It's still quite good, but it's not monstrously good as it was. It should still be one of the better choices in the slot, though t5 now incrementally outclasses it.

Quasar · 04/18/07, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Shmanel

Slight aside from the normal theorycraft, but can anyone tell / point me to info about the new flight form quest? From that reward SS it seems to end in Heroic Sethekk, but is that it?

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled number crunching.

The regular WoW forums are good for something after all:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...94073863&sid=1