dar3652

Ive been trying to get some information from other threads and played around with healing spreadsheets and such and wanted to open this up to discussion with some others that have done some research and calculations to determine these numbers. A lot of the way the game is made and plate healing gear having no mp5 and spell crit instead leads players to believe a certain thing that is not true. From all calculations I've done and everything I've seen, paladins will be able to heal more efficiently next patch with stacking mp5 gear (mostly mail) and totally forgetting about spellcrit than they could with the gear Blizzard wants paladins to have. Upon doing some calculations and asking some other people on the forums I've also seen that +30 intellect enchant to a weapon will create more healing over any boss fight than +81 healing to weapon will yield and 6mp5 to bracers will create more healing than +30 healing to bracers over any fight longer than 3minutes (i THINK that was the number so if its off dont freak out). I've been looking for healing tools and threads about this illumination nerf and the best thing i could find was http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...ing-calculator. Just input your stats on the right and play around with different things. I am also a big fan of the Pawn addon that allows u to assign values to each stat on an item and make each amount of a certain stat worth a certain amount of points to determine what item is better than the other. So far for calculations I've come up with the following :

1int = 3healing. 6healing = 1 mp5. 1mp5 = 6 spell crit rating(after 2.1.0).

Im aware I'm being a little courtesous on the spell crit rating (but I did that for some of the fights in SSC where most of your heals will be reranked holy lights rather than flashs of lights).

Using the spreadsheet above for a 7 minute fight here is how my total healing for the fight was adjusted by bumping up the 4 stats by 1:

(+1int) = +188 total healing
(+1healing) = +45 total healing
(+1mp5) = +694 total healing
(+1spellcrit) = +112 total healing

It seems spellcrit has become even worthless that int now and mp5 blows it out of the water. All of my values seem to match up except for the 6healing = 1 mp5 part where it seems to be +15healing = 1mp5 (for my current gear set). Does anyone think this is a little too high or can anyone add an explanation?

I am currently sitting at 24%crit/69mp5/+1613 healing. (so possibly my healing is to the point where adding more healing is sort of a waste).

Edit : Switched +81healing to weapon to +30int and 30healing on bracers to 6mp5 and conducted a 2nd test.

Test #2 (24.5%crit/75mp5/+1502healing)

(+1int) = +186 total healing
(+1heal) = +46 total healing
(+1mp5) = +683 total healing
(+1crit) = +113 total healing

Any information/calculations/explanations or your own pawn values or tools would be GREATLY appreciated.

Edit : For some reason the healing spreadsheet didnt link. Its up in the 1st paragraph or right here : http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...ing-calculator

 

DarKNecross

Did you grab a value for 1 Spellcrit Rating vs X Healing?

 

dar3652

from these calculations it seems 1 spellcrit = 2.45-2.5healing

 

Ragnor

Yeah at 1600 +heal adding more is a waste unless it allows you to move down a rank for holy light you're using as your main heal which is unlikely given the downrank nerf.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

dar3652

thats exactly what i was thinking so i switched the weapon enchant (81 healing) and bracer enchant (30 healing) making me lose 111 healing and was assuming that crit would be worth less, healing worth more etc but nothing really seemed to change even with 1500 +healing. mp5 went down in value as my healing dropped but apart from that everything stayed pretty much the same. the reason im questioning the validity of these is according this spreadsheet you could ignore spellcrit and healing and stack int and mp5 and totally ignore crit and only pick up healing items if the +healing was already on the gear and heal for more than the traditional heal/crit gear.

This analysis makes +healing gear look so pathetic and make int seem to be a much bigger deal that i thought it was. From these numbers it takes almost +15 healing to gain the same benefit as 1mp5 which sounds a little farfetched seeing as how the highest healing on a red gem is +18healing and a 3mp5 gem or 9heal+2mp5 gem blows it out of the water. But then again compare the mats for 30int to wpn and 81heal to wpn or 30heal to bracers to 6mp5 to bracers. From the skill lvl/mats required the 81 and 30 healing enchants should be better which arent true either. One of the reasons i can understand 30int being better than 81healing is that after Divine Intellect and BoK, 30int becomes 36int(540mana) and 13 healing(thanks to Holy Guidance). Is +healing really this useless for a paladin compared to int or mp5 and even after the Illumination patch being worth 40% of 1 spell crit rating?

 

Ragnor

Well we get triple scaling on int (raw mana, spell crit, +heal) assuming holy guidance... but how often do you find an item with 0 heal, 0 spell crit and 0 m/5, 0 stm and 100 int? Never.

Also item budgeting favors mixed stat items too, you get less value out of a "pure" 2 stat item vs a 3 stat item iirc

Post 2.1 it's a case of adapt or die..

I know people that stacked 45%+ crit, it was clearly a bit silly and due for a nerf. Personally I'd rather they nerfed the 11% crit from talents rather than illumination as it breaks the divine favor synergy.

For the majority of us that maintained a balance between +heal, m/5, spell crit, raw int we should be fine maybe losing about 30 mana/5 in spam healing encounters (which is most encounters thesedays).

It's not that hard to change a few gems, grab some mana oils, level fishing for mana regen food, spell surge on your weapon, regen meta gem (if you can make it work).

The spiritual attunement nerf will hit paladins who are in a shadow priest group hard, personally I'm almost never in the shadow priest group being in the tank group and the other healers need it more anyway.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Ragnor

I guess another option is to really go nuts stacking +heal to try and make FoL viable enough to use as a main heal. You'd need over 2k +heal though which doesn't seem easily possible without pilfering significant cloth/leather.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

dar3652

im not one of those that went crazy stacking crit to hit the 40 some crit range but most of my heroic/karazhan gear focuses on int/healing and crit. With this change to crit I had to reevaluate the class and try to determine what I wanted to go for and according to different things I've seen on the forums and different tools (such as the 1 i edited in my OP) it shows the pawn values of the 4 stats as the following :

healing=1
spellcrit=2.5
int = 4
mp5 = 15

Meaning over a 7minute boss fight(which is what I base most of these things off of) with buffs, you will be able to do the same amount of healing if you had 4healing or just 1 more int, or somehow 15healing versus 1(just 1)mp5. It doesnt make sense that +healing would be that worthless but with 30int being greater than 81healing and 4 healing being worth 1 int it looks like +healing is pretty low on the item budget. Is this correct and if so whats the reason?

 

Brista

In this putative 7 minute boss fight how useful would Spirit be?

If in the natural course of things you were spending 25% of your time outside the 5 second rule it would be not too far behind mp5, would it not?

1 spirit = half a mp5 outside the 5 second rule so if you were outside 25% of the time that would make the value of spirit 8 spirit = 1 mp5

Of course the disadvantage is that the more desperate things become the less useful it is

Also this site is quite a useful tool for generating gear lists
http://www.lootzor.com/

Putting in your numbers:
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=4...heau2.5habeu15

 

Ragnor

Finding spirit on paladin gear though is impossible unless you're going with the whole wear a ton of cloth approach. We also have no spirit regen while in combat talents or bonuses. One of the strengths of the paladins has always been that while the priests and druids stop to regen, the pallies (and shaman to a degree) keep going. Priests and druids were supposed to have the healing power while the paladin's had the longevity. Somewhere in the xpac paladins ended up with the best longevity and the best healing power instead of nerfing the power they're nerfing the longevity which sux.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

dar3652

thanks for all the responses and help. I usually dont include spirit when doing calculations because i'm rarely out of the 5 sec rule and cant really depend on it happening so if a piece of gear has spirit on it, its sorta like an added bonus. After playing around with that lootzor site for a while I re-evaluated some values and came up with something that looks pretty decent.

healing = 1
spell crit rating = 2.5
int = 2.2
mp5 = 7

I think this is a pretty decent mix between calculated values and the values blizzard wants to assign things and is a little more fair towards all the stats. I'm not entirely sure of the Int value as I feel 2.2 might be a little low (even tho these values make the 4int+2mp5 gem and the 9heal+2mp5 gem VERY close) but I also feel 1 spell crit rating is better than 1 intellect and with these values 1%spell crit = 7.86mp5 (still possibly a little high since chain casting Holy Light rank 11 w/o lights grace gives u 8.4mp5 from 1% crit and 10.5mp5 with lights grace up, and chain casting FoLR7 1%spellcrit = 3mp5). Tell me what you think of the numbers and give explanations on why you think they should be adjusted and toss the numbers you come up with into that awesome lootzor.com page and post your findings. Thank you very much in advance.

 

DarKNecross

Honestly, I'm not going to be hard-pressed to change any of the enchants/gems in my current gear until i find out just what I need - meaning in practice if I need more mana, i'd probably take 30int or Spellsurge, change some 8crit for 9heal 2mp5 (or 4int 2mp5). If I find Crit isn't doing as well as it used to, I'll probably go 9heal 4int. If i'm fine, then I'm fine.
For common ground and balance concerns, I'm going to try and drop my spellcrit a bit, maybe try 20% Holy raid buffed, sacrifice some crit for Mp5. I'll probably be shooting for about 1600 heal 18% Crit 120mp5 unbuffed.

 

Ragnor

Yeah for most people it's not a huge nerf, just the people who went lol stack crit to 45% w/ 1k +heal and 20 m/5.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Deris

You mean everyone in Tier 4 and above right? Since there is no MP5 on most of our gear and all that. Blizzard needs to take a long, hard look at current Paladin itemization and set some interns to work fixing it. T5 seems to be the only thing done right, except for the fact that the Aran Mantle performs a little too close to T5 Mantle for my liking.

 

Silana

I think most people are way overrating MP5. If mana is an issue, downranking gives much better returns then MP5, and if it is not, MP5 is completely worthless.

I'll use some numbers I got using my current equipment in the above posted spreadsheet with 50% Illumination as an example (the actual values vary a bit with equipment and default rank, but the argument remains the same):

Spell Healing Mana cost
Holy Light 10 3810 625,0009842
Holy Light 11 4349 739,4377841

Downranking reduces Healing by 539.
This means 539/1.12/5*7= 674 +Heal are needed for Rank 10 to perform equal to my current Rank 11.
Downranking reduces mana usage by 114 per cast. This means (assuming chaincasting, I am ignoring latency and using 2.0 second casttime) 114/2*5 =285 Mana/5 are needed to make Mana consumption of my Rank 11 the same as my current Rank 10.

In other words, gaining 674+Heal and downranking will give the same result as gaining 285 Mana/5; so 1 MP5 cannot be worth more then about 2.36 +Heal.

Depending on the default spell(s) used the numbers may change a bit, but MP5 is nowhere near the 5, 7 or 15 values of +Heal people are using.

 

Kozu

It's really cool with these values and that Lootzor.com is pretty cool. The problem is just that you can't really use it for picking up gear (as you did with the lootzor.com link).

The first goal as a paladin (gearwise) is to get around 1600 healing, so your FoL (Rank 7) will hit for around 1300 as base (so you'll actually be able to heal the raid up in time). When you have the 1600 healing sorted, then you can start judging and maybe replace some of your gems/armor-pieces with the value-template above.

 

dar3652

unfortunetly with your calculations silana, noone is ever casting max rank holy lights (or rank 10 holy lights) nonstop for the whole fight. 285mp5 would yield 3420mana per minute(or 4 more max rank holy lights per minute). Deranking 1 rank yields almost no benefit for HpM which is why people rarely use rank 10 holy light. assume you cast 1 holy light every 5 seconds (instead of chain casting w/ Lights Grace up) and your +674healing turns into 114mp5(big difference). Which makes 6healing about the worth of 1mp5. Throw lower rank healers into the mix via Rank7 Holy Light and Rank7 flash of light and the mp5 becomes worth even more.

 

Emily

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I've recently downloaded Pawn, basically a mod that lets you assign values to stats, a la lootzor.

I'm trying to figure out a good scale to assign to stats and sockets. At the moment, I'm looking at:

(Pawn: v1: "Healpoints": Intellect=1.4, Stamina=1.2 RedSocket=17, BlueSocket=17, YellowSocket=14, MetaSocket=46, SpellCritRating=1.8, Mana=0.02, SpellPower=1, Mp5=5, Healing=1)

At the moment I'm trying to shift my gear preference further towards output rather than regeneration, hence my perhaps low value given to mana5. I don't mind chain chugging Super Mana potions, and thus far in most fights I'm finding I have mana left over at the end of the fight, even on lenghty battles like Magtheridon, and I want to increase my healing output. I switched from the Insightful Earthstorm Diamond to my current Mystical Skyfire, and swapped out the Aran +40int/regen trinket for the Scarab of the Infinite Cycle.

I've also included Stamina in the scale because I like my gear to be well-rounded and the vast majority of fights include some environmental damage.

Can anyone offer any feedback on the weighting I've assigned my stats? At the moment it's a bit haphazard with only a little maths behind it; going more on gut feeling. The problem with healing is it's not as simple as damage; you need to deal with spikes, take breaks when nothing's happening, etc etc, hence my attempts to focus on the amount I can output within any given timeframe.

 

Syrion

I have a question which relates to the topic of relative values of mp5, intellect, etc. After the illumination nerf, have other Paladins also found that many of the “upgrades” turned out to not really be upgrades. The critical healing took a 40% nerf, however it seems that a majority of the itemization was not taken into account.

For example:
Triptych Shield of the Ancients - Items - World of Warcraft (Triptych Shield of the Ancients) vs. Bastion of Light - Items - World of Warcraft (Bastion of Light)
The first shield is from Karazhan while the second is from the second boss in Hyjal. The Hyjal shield is apparently 26 ilvl higher than the Karazhan. However regardless of how I would socket it, I don’t feel like I am getting a big upgrade at all, perhaps even a downgrade healing wise. The spellcrit gained doesn’t even come close to the mp5 I lose even if I factor in the extra intellect and healing.

Similarly:
Justicar Tier 4 shoulders vs. Crystalforge tier 5 shoulders. Again loss of 5 mp5 as well as small amount of int for a minor +healing gain and spellcrit. I am currently not planning on getting tier 5 shoulders because I would personally consider it a downgrade.

I am sure there are other examples but does anyone else agree that perhaps a re-evaluation of itemization might be needed in regards to spell crit vs. mp5?

 

Sterlin

I agree for the most part ...

If you look at healing for a 600 second boss fight. SSC non tier items always seem to come out as a downgrade.

I would like to hear from BT and Hijal pallies who can compare the T5 items and spell crit stuff to the Mp5 etc...

 

Wintern

I like spell crit alot, even using some 10 spell crit gems, currently im at 40% raid buffed spell crit which is great for alot of fights in BT and Hyjal where im having to use max rank HL alot, combined with a Shaman or Shadow Priest and the mana regen is crazy. This week on Najentus I had around 48% HL Crit Rate and with a Shaman I was literally able to use rank 11 HL for the whole fight (6-7 mins) and still had 500'ish mana left at the end.

I personally feel people don't value spell crit enough.

 

Syrion

It's not that we do not value spellcrit but the issue is rather that sometimes the mp5 is better. I can understand your ability to spam max rank with +critical gems however the math just doesn't add up. If you take the gems you have that are dedicated to +critical and replace them with + mp5 you should theoretically be able to heal more because math would show that in the end the mp5 gives you more mana. Some of the posts above show relative values of all the healing related variables.

 

Spades

Don't forget that despite the nerf to Illumination, crit heals are still 50% bigger. Overhealing yeah yeah, how many times has your tank died because you ran out of mana? How many times has your tank died because the heal you landed in the middle of a parry crushing chain wasn't big enough? Functionally, spell crit works a little bit like straight +healing.

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

Syrion

I agree on the fact that crit heal does heal for more and perhaps we can take that into account and count its +healing equivalent 1.5 times more. The main issue i have is that still there are certain cases where things just don't add up. For example a few posts above i listed two shields, the "upgrade" causes one to lose a massive amount of mp5 with a gain of some + healing and some int/sta. For a 26 ilvl jump it does not seem that good of an upgrade. Comparing it to the other healing shield that drops with critical strike rating in BT, i don't know if losing 8 mp5 is worth the 21 crit rating. I am currently not in BT so anyone who is, i could really use your opinions! And thank you for the ones who have already stated theirs.

 

Kasonic

The real question I haven't seen anyone mention is how do the item values for these statistics compared to these tested values?

For example, if 6 spell crit rating is roughly equal to 1mp5 in item value cost, according to the OP's tests they would be basically identical.