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 dar3652 04/15/07 6:42 PM

[Paladin] Values of Int/SpellCrit/Mp5/+Heal in 2.1.0

1int = 3healing. 6healing = 1 mp5. 1mp5 = 6 spell crit rating(after 2.1.0).

Im aware I'm being a little courtesous on the spell crit rating (but I did that for some of the fights in SSC where most of your heals will be reranked holy lights rather than flashs of lights).

Using the spreadsheet above for a 7 minute fight here is how my total healing for the fight was adjusted by bumping up the 4 stats by 1:

(+1int) = +188 total healing
(+1healing) = +45 total healing
(+1mp5) = +694 total healing
(+1spellcrit) = +112 total healing

It seems spellcrit has become even worthless that int now and mp5 blows it out of the water. All of my values seem to match up except for the 6healing = 1 mp5 part where it seems to be +15healing = 1mp5 (for my current gear set). Does anyone think this is a little too high or can anyone add an explanation?

I am currently sitting at 24%crit/69mp5/+1613 healing. (so possibly my healing is to the point where adding more healing is sort of a waste).

Edit : Switched +81healing to weapon to +30int and 30healing on bracers to 6mp5 and conducted a 2nd test.

Test #2 (24.5%crit/75mp5/+1502healing)

(+1int) = +186 total healing
(+1heal) = +46 total healing
(+1mp5) = +683 total healing
(+1crit) = +113 total healing

Any information/calculations/explanations or your own pawn values or tools would be GREATLY appreciated.

Edit : For some reason the healing spreadsheet didnt link. Its up in the 1st paragraph or right here : http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...ing-calculator

 DarKNecross 04/15/07 9:22 PM

Did you grab a value for 1 Spellcrit Rating vs X Healing?

 dar3652 04/15/07 9:35 PM

from these calculations it seems 1 spellcrit = 2.45-2.5healing

 Ragnor 04/15/07 9:41 PM

Yeah at 1600 +heal adding more is a waste unless it allows you to move down a rank for holy light you're using as your main heal which is unlikely given the downrank nerf.

 dar3652 04/15/07 9:56 PM

thats exactly what i was thinking so i switched the weapon enchant (81 healing) and bracer enchant (30 healing) making me lose 111 healing and was assuming that crit would be worth less, healing worth more etc but nothing really seemed to change even with 1500 +healing. mp5 went down in value as my healing dropped but apart from that everything stayed pretty much the same. the reason im questioning the validity of these is according this spreadsheet you could ignore spellcrit and healing and stack int and mp5 and totally ignore crit and only pick up healing items if the +healing was already on the gear and heal for more than the traditional heal/crit gear.

This analysis makes +healing gear look so pathetic and make int seem to be a much bigger deal that i thought it was. From these numbers it takes almost +15 healing to gain the same benefit as 1mp5 which sounds a little farfetched seeing as how the highest healing on a red gem is +18healing and a 3mp5 gem or 9heal+2mp5 gem blows it out of the water. But then again compare the mats for 30int to wpn and 81heal to wpn or 30heal to bracers to 6mp5 to bracers. From the skill lvl/mats required the 81 and 30 healing enchants should be better which arent true either. One of the reasons i can understand 30int being better than 81healing is that after Divine Intellect and BoK, 30int becomes 36int(540mana) and 13 healing(thanks to Holy Guidance). Is +healing really this useless for a paladin compared to int or mp5 and even after the Illumination patch being worth 40% of 1 spell crit rating?

 Ragnor 04/15/07 10:00 PM

Well we get triple scaling on int (raw mana, spell crit, +heal) assuming holy guidance... but how often do you find an item with 0 heal, 0 spell crit and 0 m/5, 0 stm and 100 int? Never.

Also item budgeting favors mixed stat items too, you get less value out of a "pure" 2 stat item vs a 3 stat item iirc

Post 2.1 it's a case of adapt or die..

I know people that stacked 45%+ crit, it was clearly a bit silly and due for a nerf. Personally I'd rather they nerfed the 11% crit from talents rather than illumination as it breaks the divine favor synergy.

For the majority of us that maintained a balance between +heal, m/5, spell crit, raw int we should be fine maybe losing about 30 mana/5 in spam healing encounters (which is most encounters thesedays).

It's not that hard to change a few gems, grab some mana oils, level fishing for mana regen food, spell surge on your weapon, regen meta gem (if you can make it work).

The spiritual attunement nerf will hit paladins who are in a shadow priest group hard, personally I'm almost never in the shadow priest group being in the tank group and the other healers need it more anyway.

 Ragnor 04/15/07 10:15 PM

I guess another option is to really go nuts stacking +heal to try and make FoL viable enough to use as a main heal. You'd need over 2k +heal though which doesn't seem easily possible without pilfering significant cloth/leather.

 dar3652 04/15/07 10:20 PM

im not one of those that went crazy stacking crit to hit the 40 some crit range but most of my heroic/karazhan gear focuses on int/healing and crit. With this change to crit I had to reevaluate the class and try to determine what I wanted to go for and according to different things I've seen on the forums and different tools (such as the 1 i edited in my OP) it shows the pawn values of the 4 stats as the following :

healing=1
spellcrit=2.5
int = 4
mp5 = 15

Meaning over a 7minute boss fight(which is what I base most of these things off of) with buffs, you will be able to do the same amount of healing if you had 4healing or just 1 more int, or somehow 15healing versus 1(just 1)mp5. It doesnt make sense that +healing would be that worthless but with 30int being greater than 81healing and 4 healing being worth 1 int it looks like +healing is pretty low on the item budget. Is this correct and if so whats the reason?

 Brista 04/16/07 12:02 AM

In this putative 7 minute boss fight how useful would Spirit be?

If in the natural course of things you were spending 25% of your time outside the 5 second rule it would be not too far behind mp5, would it not?

1 spirit = half a mp5 outside the 5 second rule so if you were outside 25% of the time that would make the value of spirit 8 spirit = 1 mp5

Of course the disadvantage is that the more desperate things become the less useful it is

Also this site is quite a useful tool for generating gear lists
http://www.lootzor.com/

http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=4...heau2.5habeu15

 Ragnor 04/16/07 2:06 AM

Finding spirit on paladin gear though is impossible unless you're going with the whole wear a ton of cloth approach. We also have no spirit regen while in combat talents or bonuses. One of the strengths of the paladins has always been that while the priests and druids stop to regen, the pallies (and shaman to a degree) keep going. Priests and druids were supposed to have the healing power while the paladin's had the longevity. Somewhere in the xpac paladins ended up with the best longevity and the best healing power instead of nerfing the power they're nerfing the longevity which sux.

 dar3652 04/16/07 2:29 AM

thanks for all the responses and help. I usually dont include spirit when doing calculations because i'm rarely out of the 5 sec rule and cant really depend on it happening so if a piece of gear has spirit on it, its sorta like an added bonus. After playing around with that lootzor site for a while I re-evaluated some values and came up with something that looks pretty decent.

healing = 1
spell crit rating = 2.5
int = 2.2
mp5 = 7

I think this is a pretty decent mix between calculated values and the values blizzard wants to assign things and is a little more fair towards all the stats. I'm not entirely sure of the Int value as I feel 2.2 might be a little low (even tho these values make the 4int+2mp5 gem and the 9heal+2mp5 gem VERY close) but I also feel 1 spell crit rating is better than 1 intellect and with these values 1%spell crit = 7.86mp5 (still possibly a little high since chain casting Holy Light rank 11 w/o lights grace gives u 8.4mp5 from 1% crit and 10.5mp5 with lights grace up, and chain casting FoLR7 1%spellcrit = 3mp5). Tell me what you think of the numbers and give explanations on why you think they should be adjusted and toss the numbers you come up with into that awesome lootzor.com page and post your findings. Thank you very much in advance.

 DarKNecross 04/16/07 3:16 AM

Honestly, I'm not going to be hard-pressed to change any of the enchants/gems in my current gear until i find out just what I need - meaning in practice if I need more mana, i'd probably take 30int or Spellsurge, change some 8crit for 9heal 2mp5 (or 4int 2mp5). If I find Crit isn't doing as well as it used to, I'll probably go 9heal 4int. If i'm fine, then I'm fine.
For common ground and balance concerns, I'm going to try and drop my spellcrit a bit, maybe try 20% Holy raid buffed, sacrifice some crit for Mp5. I'll probably be shooting for about 1600 heal 18% Crit 120mp5 unbuffed.

 Ragnor 04/16/07 3:50 AM

Yeah for most people it's not a huge nerf, just the people who went lol stack crit to 45% w/ 1k +heal and 20 m/5.

 Deris 04/16/07 4:07 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 328461) Yeah for most people it's not a huge nerf, just the people who went lol stack crit to 45% w/ 1k +heal and 20 m/5.
You mean everyone in Tier 4 and above right? Since there is no MP5 on most of our gear and all that. Blizzard needs to take a long, hard look at current Paladin itemization and set some interns to work fixing it. T5 seems to be the only thing done right, except for the fact that the Aran Mantle performs a little too close to T5 Mantle for my liking.

 Silana 04/16/07 5:16 AM

I think most people are way overrating MP5. If mana is an issue, downranking gives much better returns then MP5, and if it is not, MP5 is completely worthless.

I'll use some numbers I got using my current equipment in the above posted spreadsheet with 50% Illumination as an example (the actual values vary a bit with equipment and default rank, but the argument remains the same):

Spell Healing Mana cost
Holy Light 10 3810 625,0009842
Holy Light 11 4349 739,4377841

Downranking reduces Healing by 539.
This means 539/1.12/5*7= 674 +Heal are needed for Rank 10 to perform equal to my current Rank 11.
Downranking reduces mana usage by 114 per cast. This means (assuming chaincasting, I am ignoring latency and using 2.0 second casttime) 114/2*5 =285 Mana/5 are needed to make Mana consumption of my Rank 11 the same as my current Rank 10.

In other words, gaining 674+Heal and downranking will give the same result as gaining 285 Mana/5; so 1 MP5 cannot be worth more then about 2.36 +Heal.

Depending on the default spell(s) used the numbers may change a bit, but MP5 is nowhere near the 5, 7 or 15 values of +Heal people are using.

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