Sapphidia

Hey all, couldnt find anything similar in this forum - due to boredom I'm considering starting a priest alt for DPS as something different, and whilst we all know how marvellous Shadows are, I'm curious as to the power of a Disc/Holy priest focussing on Smite DPS, and whether such a priest would be worthy of a Ranged DPS Slot for a raid.

What got me interested is the rather large amount of multipliers it seems possible to stack onto Smite via a build something like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bxghzI0zrxZ0Et0bbqbZo

Not sure if that's optimal, but that gives Smite the following modifiers:

+10% Spell Crit (From Holy spec and Force of Will
+15% total damage (from Force of Will and Searing Light)
+4% to hit (from Focussed Power)
20% Threat reduction
50% chance of clearcasting on a crit (the spell is instant and non-crittable, so the 2.0 speed down to 1.5 speed will cancel out the potential damage loss of no crit)
+35% Spirit -> Spellpower (Spiritual Guidance + Imp DS) Maybe around 100-150 bonus damage raidbuffed?

And best of all: a reduction from 2.5 seconds to 2.0 seconds cast. If I'm correct, the only Damage spell that benefits from a cast reduction this massive is Wrath (from 2.0 to 1.5), so that's a full +25% total DPS boost from cast time.

The priest would also come with 15% in combat regeneration, and a bunch of damage reduction talents. Oh, and could spot heal without form switching, but I'm not caring about that side - i'm merely interested in the raw damage potential of a priest spamming nothing but Smite as raid DPS. Oh, and it's holy damage, so I would imagine that's the equivalent of coming with a high natural amount of Spell Penetration as nothing has the resistance.

I may be wrong, but the holy/disc damage talents seem to have much more "bang for the buck" than those of a mage or warlock, although the trees are a bit filled with talents that wont fully benefit. 10% damage to one spell (-the- spell) from 2 talent points? But regardless, looking at the build above, that seems a rather large amount of multipliers onto a single damage spell. Whilst the overall utility and raid-helping wont be anywhere near that of a shadow priest, the sheer amount of multipliers, bonus crit and bonus damage you can stack onto smite from a rather unversatile damage build have got me wondering if I -could- spec a Priest for Holy DPS and be a reasonably competitive DPSer.

Certainly blizz seem to think it's viable looking at the damage version of the T4 priest set :P

Am I missing something, or does the DPS output of this kind of build (when raid buffed and in high enough spelldamage gear) warrant looking at? I'm not sure what I'm missing compared to a mage (no evocation, higher spell cost, but possibly compensated by higher IC regen, shadowfiend and more frequent clearcasts), and obviously no real viability beyond single target DPS. But a smite dpser seems to me (on paper) to be moonkin-level DPS but with 20% threat reduction.

Anyone gone for a pure smite dps build in good gear and can comment how they perform? Or should I just give up now and go shadow from level 10?

 

Trouble

I haven't done the math though the same thoughts going through your head have gone through mine. What shut it down for me was when I considered the smite priest's role in a raid and by extension the utility. What does a smite priest bring to a raid? Let's just assume they have DPS comparable to a mage, just take it as a given. What else? They don't bring anything that a holy priest doesn't bring and holy priests don't bring a lot to begin with. They have no stackable buffs/abilities. They have no mob debuffs. They have absolutely nothing.

At the end of the day, if you're going to be a dps priest, you need to be shadow. Shadow priests bring a huge amount of utility to a raid, arguably the most of any class. Not only that, but you can bring up to about three and continue getting large amounts of utility with each one you stack.

One of the main downfalls of holy priests healing is the same downfall of smite dps. Lack of utility, lack of reason to stack multiples. Mage stacking gives you multiple sheeps and more AoE. Warlock stacking gives you more curses, more imps, more healthstones, more AoE. Multiply holy/disc priests gives you absolutely nothing.

 

Sapphidia

Yep, I'll agree there. One could argue that you always need -one- priest in the raid with imp Fortitude and imp Divine Spirit, so if the priest takes up a ranged dps slot then that frees up the healing spots to be Druids/Paladins. One could argue that in Karazhan at least, an extra Shackle is as good as an extra mage, and it's one extra dispeller, but I certainly wont argue that other classes will bring more.

My main thoughts were more along the lines of "could I possibly compete in DPS so well that they'd -have- to take me?" I've been in raids where mages are doing comparable damage to Prot Warriors or dpsers are pvp spec and just can't keep up with the top of the class. Assuming all dps classes do near identical DPS, you'd never take an extra holy priest for dps (unless your healer priest didnt have imp Divine Spirit), but with all those multipliers on Smite... hmm... maybe it's a pipedream, but "all multipliers are broken". It just seems that there's huge dps potential in there somehow that might warrant taking one.

 

◊ Shalas

With 35% crit, 16% hit and +1000 spelldamage (which I don't think is actually possible unpotted), smite is only a theoretical 884 dps with no lag. +10% crit is solid, but no talent for +100% crits hurts a lot, and +15% damage is only decent -- shadow priests get +45% pre-CoS, and fire mages get +30% pre-CoE. 2.5 seconds -> 2 seconds is good, but Empowered Fireball/etc. actually results in FB getting a higher benefit from spelldamage.

Also, Smite spec suffers from the same basic problem as Moonkin -- huge mana problems (smite is close to 200 mana/second), and no compelling reason to bring one. Other than the ability to switch to healing (and fairly well, as there aren't enough damage points to skip all of the healing stuff), all that a smite priest would bring is damage. As rogues like to point out, if all you're contributing is your damage, your damage needs to be #1. There's fights where other classes don't contribute to anything but damage, but Netherspite is the only fight I can think of where you could plan on smite priests contributing more than damage (and any other hybrid could do just as well there).

 

Sapp

Don't forget the biggest possible synergy though; bring a Ret paladin tagging your mobs for +272 holy power, +3% crit, and giving you a +10% holy damage aura.

 

SindirHH

I'd rather bring a holy healing priest, than a holy dps priest. Hell I'd rather bring a retadin for dps....

 

Nock

Due to the inability to bring anything truly unique to a raid, there is no real reason for a Smite DPS build. Any success with the build will be due to the player's motivation and fervor. Whereas there are many multipliers for the spell, there are just as many, if not more, for a Shadow build, or a Mage.

The biggest drawbacks for a Smite DPS build are the lack of a crit modifier from 150% to 200% and the coefficient on the spell's benefit from spell damage.

 

tedv

Surge of Light is mathematically equivalent to a 200% crit damage modifier, since it makes half of your smites deal 150% + 100% damage for 250% total. (150% and 250% damage average to 200%.) Of course, it also eats a global cooldown.

Arguably the one thing this build brings to a raid is Power Infusion, which will be nuts on a shadow priest (for the boss) or mage (for AoE). But I don't think the utility of power infusion is worth giving up the utility of another cloth DPS class.

On the plus side, at least you'd have a use for all the T4 set pieces with spell crit on them!

 

◊ Kalman

Surge of Light is actually modellable as follows.

150% + 100% damage over 3.5 seconds rather than 100% over 2. So, your "crit" deals 250% damage but only over 1.75 cast periods, rather than 200% over 1 cast period (e.g. frost mages). This gives an effective crit modifier of 1.428.

Yep, I said it. Surge of Light lowers your DPS. It raises your DPM, though.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Sapphidia

Hmm, something seems wrong with that calculation. Maybe it's me though:

Technically whether or not it lowers your DPS is dependant upon your crit rating? What it -actually- means is that a crit subtracts 25% off the cast time of your next smite in addition to making it mana free. The problem is that it can't crit.

Whether or not it's a DPS downgrade depends upon your crit rate. If the extra smite -could- crit, then that would simply make a proc increase your DPS by 33% for the next 1.5 seconds. The spell can't crit, but is doing dps 33% faster. Spell crits add 50% damage, so surely the only way Smite Procs can lower your total DPS is if you have a 66% crit rate, which is unobtainable.

I fully stand by that the smite crit proc is mainly for the purpose of giving you mana free smites, but I cant see how it can -lower- your dps with current crit levels. The 1.42 crit value you gave is right, but it's taken over 3.5 seconds rather than 2.0. It doesnt mean that a crit boosts your damage by 1.42, it means that it's forcing a second smite spell to be a "crit" at a reduced coefficient. Effectively it IS 1.42 but you're not taking into account that the mechanics of the smite proc is almost doubling your crit rate, in a strange way. You get -TWO- smites over 3.5 seconds with an average damage of 125%.

 

◊ Kalman

Assume a 20% crit rate. Assume a non-crit does 100 damage.

With no SoLight, you can model your damage (ignoring resist/hit calculations and all scaling contributions, just crits modeled) as (1*.8 + 1.5*.2)/2*100 = 55 DPS.

With SoLight, the model becomes:

(1*.8/2 + 2.5*.2/3.5)*100 = 54.28 DPS.

Setting crit to be a variable (c), we get:

(1*(1-c) + 1.5*c)/2*100
(1 - c + 1.5c)/2*100
(1 + .5c)*50 = noSoL DPS

((1-c)/2 + 2.5*c/3.5)*100 = SoL DPS
(.5 - .5c + 0.714c)*100
(1 + .428c)*50 = SoL DPS

As crit scales up, SoL DPS continues to fall behind because a free non-crit smite is just not that good.

Hm. There's maybe a flaw in the SoL model, because the % of smites non-crit is actually affected by the % crit somewhat differently. Gimme a few to work this out.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Sapp

I really am curious what the peak there now is with an improved crusader and a sanctity aura, though. Shadow Weaving and Improved Scorch got included for their respective classes in someone's offhand comment; Smite just has more of it's synergy put in cross-class elements.

 

Thezilch

SoL DPS

[top]
(avg_dmg/2)(1 + (.5 * crit_chance)) + (crit_chance * .5)(avg_dmg/1.5)

Non-SoL DPS

(avg_dmg/2)(1 + (.5 * crit_chance))

 

Sapphidia

OK, trying to work out the mechanics. I'm 99% convinced that SoL procs increase your DPS by about 5-10% when they happen.

How about this. Assuming 100 damage smites and 20% crit. Assume you cast 10 times.

Without SoL that would give you 8 regular Smites and 2 Smite Crits, for 1100 damage over 20 seconds. That's 55 DPS.

WITH SoL you'd have got the same 8 regular smites and 2 smite crits for 1100 damage, but one of those crits would have procced SOL giving you an extra 100 damage and increasing to 21.5 seconds. That's 1200 over 21.5 seconds, or 55.8 DPS.

Ergo, with those figures, Surge of Light -does- increase your overall DPS.

 

Thezilch

~6% increase

 

◊ Kalman

Alright, take a 20% crit rate. This implies that on every 5 smites, you get 1 "free" smite and 1 crit smite (plus 4 normal smites). So, total time taken: 2*5+1.5 = 11.5 seconds. Damage dealt is 5 + 1.5 = 6.5.

Take a 20% crit rate non-SoL. 5 smites, 1 crits. 2*5 = 10 seconds. 1.5 + 4 = 5.5.

6.5/11.5 = 0.565
5.5/10 = 0.55

So a slight increase at 20% crit rate.

Symbolically:

(c*1.5 + 1)/(2 + 1.5*c)

vs.

(c*1.5 + (1-c)*1)/2

Anyway, the point that SoL isn't the same as a 250% crit mod stands. The GCD changes it significantly.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

Sapphidia

Yep, agreed. It's still a DPS boost, but it's like giving crits a 158% modifer instead of a 150%, rather than the full 200%. It's mostly the fact that you're getting a heck of a lot of clearcasting (50% of your crit rate). And although the same calculations apply as above for working out DPM boost, i'd wager with standard crit rates in good gear you'd be looking at the equivalant of about 12-13% clearcasting.

I'm still thinking that flat out DPS with decent gear (and as Nock so wisely said, the players determination and fervor), it will be competitive. if you can add Curse of Elements in to Mage calcs, you have to add in Ret dps boosts. Against single non-raid targets, I can't see where mages are getting noticeably more spell modifiers from. A 3.5 to 3.0 cast time, and 10% firedamage with about 6% bonus crit, compared to a flat 15% boost, 10% crit and 2.5 to 2.0 bonus. Ignite on crits will be a major thing, is that what would take it above a Smite spam with the 158% or so from SoL? Empowered fireball for 15% of bonus spelldamage vs 35% of spirit converted to spelldamage seem to cancel out. Mages get more control, and there's improved scorch, but it seems that comparing a Fireball spamming mage to a Smite spamming Priest there's not much in it.

I expect mana issues will be the main problem in sustained dps. 15% IC regen with a higher natural spirit, Shadowfiend and 12-13% clearcasting might not be enough to account for the higher mana cost of Smite.

What about a casting rotation of 1 Holy Fire and 4 Smites though, to keep the holy fire DOT on. That looks most efficient - Holy Fire seems to be a very mana efficient spell if the dot is allowed to run its course, and gets the same boosts as Smite it seems.

I'll agree with everyone that's stated that there's no versatility to the build, but I'm still not 100% convinced that they can't be pretty competitive on the damage meter given similar states to other classes. Guess I've got some theorycrafting to do, as something tells me there isnt likely to be any holy dpsers around these parts for anecdotes.

 

Thezilch

I forgot SoL is only a 50% chance on crit, so I modified above. SoL also has the problem of proc'ing after the next cast has already started -- more frequent with stopcast macros. This obviously has issues with double crits and both having proc'd SoL.

And as already mentioned, unless Holy DPS is above casters and below melee (this line should already be narrow / non-existent), there is no room for such a caster.

 

Ragnor

Same problem as a Retribution paladins really...
a) Base dps isn't high enough even using max ranks of every cd/ability as soon as it's up.
b) Mana efficiency is terrible, ~2-3min till oom using max ranks of abilities, hello 5-7min encounters at the real end game.
c) Raid utility doesn't outweigh bringing a pure dps or healer class/spec instead



Reasons for doing it anyway would be:
a) Because holy fire looks damn cool, one of my favourite spell animations in the game
b) To be different
c) To make a video for fun
d) For fun

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

• mutagen

Smite DPS is viable for allowing a pure healer spec some solo capability. Smite uses too much mana to be viable for much else.

I've played mostly as a Holy priest, healing focused with a few nods towards Smite DPS (Searing Light). I leveled to 70 playing a bit with Surge of Light and Force of Will. They boost Damage / Damage per Mana a bit but nowhere near what is needed to be viable at bossfights. With the 1.10 patch I started collecting a damage set, pushing over 400 spelldamage pre TBC and over 700 currently (nothing spectacular, I'm not a tailor, but decent for a secondary role).

On some of our last MC runs I could sneak into the top 10 on damage meters during trash, though that was as much from people slacking and bringing undergeared alts as it was from Smite DPS. Nowadays the only chance I get to DPS is 5 mans, when too many healers are available. DPS is respectable but nothing special. Mana remains the biggest issue, I'm OOM after every pull and often still drinking as the next group is being pulled. If I DPS during a boss I'm OOM quickly, usually under a minute. Shadowfiend and mana pots extend this somewhat but not enough to be useful in a raid context.

The mana problems also quash another reason to fill a raid slot with Holy DPS, the ability to switch from DPS to healing if things go sideways.

Smite and these talents are balanced in such a way to give a healing specced priest the ability to solo content and limited farming ability (huge downtime, you're drinking every other pull and run away if you get adds). IMO Blizzard has succeeded, creating a strong healing spec that does enough damage for solo and small group content without creating a viable dual raiding role.

 

Cloudgatherer

As has been said, the answer to this is generally "no". The raid would have to place such a priest in a group with 1 spriest, maybe 2, and throw in a shaman with a mana totem and maybe, just maybe, the mana problem is alleviated a bit to viable. That strikes me as jumping thru alot of hoops though.

However, if this is an alt for you, have you considered keeping such a priest in 5 mans or maybe as an arena member? In a raid setting, such a priest does not offer alot of advantage as those advantages have been covered by others, but such coverage is lacking in a 5 man setting. I have an alt priest with pretty good gear pre-kara (high end blues, faction epic here or there) and even specced deep holy (not even smite specced), I'd dish out respectable damage and be able to heal in emergencies. (Actually, it's helpful to have such gear when I look at "new" healers, I tag along on the 5 man run as a "DPS priest" and I can judge how well the healer does by how often I have to drop into heal mode myself.)

While in a raid, you'll just run out of gas spamming smite, but in 5 mans there is a bit more wiggle room in the encounters and they tend not to last quite so long that a smite priest would go OOM with shadowfiend already used. Anyway, just a suggestions if you're looking to explore viability of "non-shadow priest DPS" options =).

 

Sapphidia

Yep, thanks. That's kind of what I'd considered for me personally, although my peering at the talent mechanics did have me wondering about viability at top levels. I'm a prot tank through and through, so Sapphy will always be my main. A dps priest would be a fun variant character to do something different (like how I converted my old tanking bear into a moonkin preBC just to fiddle with something out of the ordinary), so i'd expect DPS slots in 5mans (where offhealing would be a considerable boon) and possibly Karazhan at a real stretch.

If running out of gas with Smite spam is likely the only major issue, then this alt could make a very different, fun alternative for 5man runs with friends. Might stand a chance of competing on DPS meters then if I go all out (was always fun beating TAQ-level DPSers with my full Dire Maul-level geared moonkin in small 5mans, just by gritting my teeth and never slacking, and making sure all enchants etc were up to scratch. Had to try a hell of a lot harder to obtain the same levels of dps that the intense raiders were getting whilst slacking, but it was fun).

But no, i wouldnt plan on levelling this and -trying- to force myself into raidgroups as a viable ranged slot member... and certainly not after most of the comments from this thread, it seems most people are fairly universal in the details of the maths.