Iol

Using this combat log generator: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/tankSim/

Note: This sim was made with paladin in minds and uses Holy shield's current implementation (4 block per 10sec), We could assume it can work for warrior's imp shield block. Since it also doesn't calculates Ardent Defender, nor Shield Wall or Last Stand, it's non-factor to the experiment.

On Maulgar,
The tank is being healed by 3 priests, with 175 mp5, 1300 +heal, 10k mana and 10% spellcrit:

Tank A stats:
23% dodge
17% parry
14.5k Armor
17k HP
17% base block
190 Block value

Result:
Block: 55.97%
Miss: 12.76%
Dodge: 22.22%
Parry: 19.34%
Crush: 0
Hit: 0

Death after 10.13 min.
Average Damage per sec: 1592.39
Reson of Deah: Healers OOM.

Tank B stats:
17% Dodge
16.5% Parry
15k Armor
16k HP
27% base block
765 Block Value

Result:
Block: 60.09%
Miss: 11.84%
Dodge: 19.3%
Parry: 19.3%
Crush: 0
Hit: 0

Death after 9.54 Minute
Average Damage per sec: 1527.48
Reson of Death: Healers OOM

_______________________

That seems to be the braking point on how much dmg per sec you take, on fight like Maulgar (hard hitters).
_______________________

The Tank B had an incoming damage curve less spiky than the Tank A, and a high Block Value (and Armor) Tank would seem better. Do you think we will get that kind of Block Value in the future of TBC raiding (before next Expac)?

With the changes to Paladin's Holy shield in Next Patch (now 8 charges per 10 sec), will Stacking Block Value be an answer for our lower HP pools? (Our T5 is loaded with Block Value, hint?)

And reguarding PvP, how do you get that high block value without making it overpowered in PvP, or would it make Prot Warrior more usefull in PvP?

Edit: Someone please correct my spellign mistake on the Title -_-;

 

Sapphidia

I did some calculations regarding the itemisation of block value - as a prot warrior I have two very distinct sets of tank kit. High block value, and high avoidance/stamina, using the high block value mostly for 5mans.

The thing about block value is that it pretty much gives a very distinct "damage reduced per second" based on mob attack speed, as opposed to a damage percentage reduction that straight avoidance gives. It synergies well with Armor of course, but at present Block Value is just a little bit expensive in stat budget.

I have a tank set with 640 block value in. With the T4 helm and Nightbane chest I'll be breaking 700, and that will be over 1000 block with the Gnomeregan trinket activated. However, with raid bosses hitting for 3-4k now, that's still a drop in the ocean. I have to sacrifice a -lot- of avoidance to get that block value, and if each block is a mere 20% damage mitigated, and I could get 10-15% avoidance from dropping down to 250 block or so, then it seems reasonable to find a level of damage to swap between them.

My personal level of damage is about 2200. I did rough calculations based on my current gear and the stat level, and came to the conclusion that when mobs start hitting you for above 2200, switch out all of your block gear and focus purely on stamina/avoidance, and if they're hitting for less than that, a gear setup with huge block Value and block rating will give you more overall mitigation.

Of course, slightly offtopic, block rating gives 1% block per 7.9, dodge gives 1% dodge per 18.9, so as soon as your block VALUE is taking off 50% of a mob's damage or greater you'll be generally better off stacking block than avoidance. In normal non-heroic 5mans my block value is usually enough to mitigate every mob's entire damage, so my Block becomes full avoidance. This is where Block Value truly shines - nowadays in full block kit I dont even -need- a healer for most non-heroic 5mans.

One thing though, I always felt Block -value- to be of more use to a warrior than a paladin, because a paladin just gets straight mitigation whereas the warrior gets efficient high threat from shield slam too. It wouldnt surprise me if Blizz factored this combo into the stat budget of Block Value, in the same way that agility boosts avoidance and crit and thus gives less avoidance than straight dodge rating.

So... Stacking Block Value will be decent, but there is -always- a cutoff point. A damage value per hit where it becomes far better and more efficient to choose items that spend their budget on stamina/avoidance. Presently this damage value hovers somewhere in the 2000-2500 range it seems, and virtually every raid boss of note is hitting far far harder than that. Until armor and block value becomes more prevalent on things, I'd suggest viewing block value as something to use in heroics and on light hitting trash and ignore it (or think of it like a freebie) for raid boss tanking.

 

Punscho

Since the damage reduction block value gives you is directly related to how hard someone hits per hit it makes very little difference on most TBC 25 man encounters. A hit for 15-20k unmitigated and even 500 block isn't that much.

It's not especially great on Karazhan bosses either, though of course better since they hit harder. I think about 80-85% of hits against me gets blocked and it's still not that useful for mitigating damage. For shield slam it's great extra threat though so I use block heavy gear for threat on thrash.

In heroics it's very nice since many mobs just hit you for 1500-2000 after reduction and blocking 600 of that makes a huge impact. I've even run some normal dungeons with 650 block (a little gimped) and most mobs don't even hurt me. Which in turn gets me raged starved like never before, but I guess it would work great for a paladin.

Now that's our hp pool is getting lowered due to the elixir and flask nerf of course bosses gotta be tweaked to hit a little less and then block becomes a little better, but I wouldn't think it's ever going to be a great stat for raiding.

 

Iol

I was thinking the same thing as you do Sapphidia, that's why i ran this log generator, with a fight like maulgar, both tanks got about the same DPS on them, and lasted about the same longevity.

That's what leads me to the question, specially to the change to Holy shield on our part, but seeking the discussing between both our classes.

 

Sapphidia

The issue with block value is purely the old Itemisation + Stat budget argument.

Can you explain what you used in order to get the Tank A and Tank B stats? You've got rather specific values for block, dodge, parry, but used what seems to be fairly arbitrary values for blocking. I dont see it being possible to get more than about 750 block value in currently available gear.

18.9 Dodge Rating gives 1% dodge - a flat 1% Avoidance. We can work out how much it "costs" for an item to contain 18.9 dodge rating, and then compare to see how much Block Value our money would have got us if all of the budget on Dodge was spent on Block Value.

That will give us our cut off point - For example, if you could get 30 Block Value for the cost of 1% dodge, then the simple maths would be that under an assumption that you manage to block every single attack against you, the cutoff point would be where 30 value blocked is 1% of the damage done, in this case 3000 damage hits.

I'm not sure of the budgeting. Something is telling me that it's about 24 Block Value for 1% dodge, which is where I got my 2400 or so value from as a cutoff.

At that point, it's going to be easy to see which is most viable to stack. We're at the mercy of itemisation again, but lets assume the value is 3000, and a raid boss is hitting you for 6000. You could stack huge amounts of block, but for the cost of 900 block value you could have got 30% dodge. Admittedly, there's no itemisation that permits that, but you'll likely be choosing between similar item levels. And there will always be a cutoff point at which 1% dodge becomes more mitigation than the corresponding block value.

Until blizzard changes its itemisation values or simply gives us loads more high end stuff with block value on, there's going to be a rigid number in the game at which point block stops being efficient.

 

◊ Kalman

18.9 dodge rating is equal to 29.07 block value (1:1.538) in itemization value. The proportion will hold for any value of dodge/block, assuming it's a total transfer from A to B with no pre-existing amount of block balue.

 

Iol

Yeah it's about 30 BV for 1% dodge in itemization value.

To answer Sapphidia, i purposedly went off the board with Block Value to see how it would do or just about where it needed to be in order to give similar return. But 765 Block Value is not impossible you are telling me..

Note: the 1000 Block value of Tank B and the 250 Block Value of Tank A is the amount they block for, not the actual value because the tanksim doesn't calculates the strenght part nor the +30% from shield spec.

Meaning, Tank B Blocks for 1000, but have about 765 block Value in reality. Sorry for the confusion

Edit: Edited OP.

This was tested using Maulgar parameter, there are stuff that hit harder but the presence of more Block Value on T5 for both of our class intrigued me. More importantly, i'm starting to try and see if it's a viable solution for a niche for paladin tanks since next patch we'll be guaranteed to Block everything we don't dodge / parry. Now if they could only change Blessing of Sanctuary to increase Block value by a % (increasing with ranks) instead of a flat -dmg maybe the blessing would be used in a raid on paladin's and warrior's tanks alike.

 

Jayde

The real problem is that very, very few items are itemized to have Block Value -without- Block% Rating. This is the real issue for a Warrior because, for all intents and purposes, Block% is an extremely inefficient and wasteful mod.

If Block Value was thrown around more liberally without being bound at the hip with Block%, I think people would be more keen on looking at it as a strong stat.

http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.4&fi...rs=1:3;crv=0:0

Basically only 6 newer items that meet that criteria, and only 4 slots represented. (And, due to class lockout, only 3 per class.)

 

Ragnor

Block rating is amazing for paladins best bang for buck mitigation cap increase, however block value is alot harder to find on itemization and yeah 1% dodge vs 30 block value I don't think most people would choose the 30 BV.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Sapphidia

Block rating is a really odd stat - i see it as being the 5man tanking stat alone.

A warrior can become crush immune in raid encounters by spamming shield block as long as their miss/dodge/parry is over 25% (and it always will be). A raid warrior needs 0% shield block really.

However, for lower rage situations and multitargets, where you're in high block kit and you are mitigating most damage (eg, SH orcs hitting for about 600, and over 600 block value, at that point 1% block becomes better than 1% dodge because you also get the 1 rage from shield spec and maybe a shield spike reflect)... block rating is awesome then. You can get over 2% block for every 1% dodge, so it's much more efficient to stack block rating in situations where a.) enemies don't hit too hard b.) you have high block value anyway and c.) you're being hit by lots of things at once or are rage starved, such that you can't keep Shield Block up for every incoming hit.

As for paladins, it seems Block Rating is initially very useful but quickly becomes rubbish. A paladin needs to have Miss+Dodge+Parry+Block+(bonus block from holy shield) over 100%. Block Rating is by far the cheapest stat to obtain this (only 7.9 rating for 1%). Many tankadins will probably stack Block Rating on items as a "fast track" way to raid level crushing immunity.

Of course, as the paladin's tank gear gets better, they can maintain the 100% via much higher dodge, parry and miss rate, and thus the need for block rating plummets. Dodge/Parry will always be preferable really, except possibly in low damage multitarget environments where high block is needed to reflect damage.

I still have yet to see any situation where Block Rating OR Block Value are preferable on high end encounters, unfortunately. That 3000 damage hit cap is kind of always present really, simply due to itemisation stat budget.

 

Ganelon

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

Sapphidia

Simply that 1% dodge costs the same amount on an item as about 29 Block Value or so.

So assuming that you block every single attack thrown at you, for total mitigation over time 1% dodge starts becoming more efficient than Block Value when mobs start hitting you for about 3k damage. Of course, this assumes a lot and is not entirely correct, as not all things are blocked, and the hit table mutates with different values of each.

But at it's core, Block Value is a form of Mitigation just like Dodge, and depending on your tank gear there will always be a "cutoff" point at which Block becomes less efficient. 3000 damage hits is about the maximum value, I rated it at one point at closer to 2200 or so.

When mobs start hitting you harder than that, you want to be in -pure- avoidance/stamina gear as it will give you far more mitigation for stat budget than blocking ever will. However, for mobs that hit you for 2000 damage or less, Block Value (and block rating for warriors) is by far the most efficient form of mitigation.

 

Frag

As my avoidance (dodge+parry+miss chance) is usually around 54%, 1% dodge adds about 2.22% mitigation (so at 3000 a hit it's mitigation is about 66.66 a hit, for me it's closer to 1350 a hit where 1% dodge is better than 29 block value.)

Of course this math also assumes 100% block chance (and the higher your avoidance the more likely you are blocking attacks you don't dodge.) The less often you block the worse block value becomes (and less avoidance can mean less blocks since you burn up charges of shield block more quickly, such as at Prince in Kara.)

 

heplo

I think everyone agrees with pretty much everything that's been said so far. There is another factor that hasn't been discussed. To quote a much repeated mantra: DPS doesn't kill tanks, damage spikes do.

In TBC, damage spikes often come from two, or more, "spike hits" in a row. Without any evidence or maths to support it, I'd like to propose the theory that block value could be considered more valuable than the straight "mitigation over time" due to this fact.

If I get hit for two big hits in a row, then the value of block on my chance to survive is effectivly doubled. If the spike comes from a combination of more than two hits, the value of block goes up proportionaly.

Does anyone have data, or a model, that could provide further insight to a) the frequency of "multiple hit spikes" or b) the impact block value has on surviving these?

 

Thelyna

One thing people might be overlooking is that if you're running with less avoidance you're burning through SB/HS charges more quickly, which can lead to dangerous crush strings between cooldowns. I realise that's basically a non-factor for a single mob with no instants, but on say Maulgar (Arcing) or Prince (hell, even Moroes or Romulo, as another dual-wielder that's a hard-hitter until you outgear him), chewing through block charges is often a big issue.

(I realise the counter-argument is avoidance isn't guaranteed to save you from hit strings either, but if you look at the entire fight and not just one cooldown, on average a tank with more avoidance will take less dangerous strings.)

 

heplo

Not really an issue for pallies with the new HS changes. 8 charges/10 seconds doesn't take much avoidance to keep up.

 

Regan_

These extra charges, and the extended duration of HS compared to Shield Block (meaning that it's 50% less vulnerable to leave "unprotected windows" due to lag, tanking cycle disruptions, etc...) will probably make a geared paladin more reliably uncrushable than a warrior.

Also, with the SA changes, I can very well see me trying to create a block value build and shedding some total avoidance to try to minimize overhealing (although I still don't have the gear for doing it and remain uncrushable).

 

Iol

That's exactly what i did in my simulation. if you run the generator, you'll see how spikes comes and go and how both tanks A and B survive the spikes.

What i wanted to seem was how much Block Value you needed on a fight like maulgar to have the same "survivability" as an avoidance-ish build, without your health doing the yo-yo.

And if it was possible, could paladins bank on it with the 8 block charge per 10 sec.

So i went in the PTR, and with my current Tank gear + 5 pc of T5, no gems or enchants on it i was blocking for about 600, but my dodge wasn't 17% like in my sim, and my block chance was 17% either. I was sitting on 19% dodge, 17.5% parry, 20.4% block and about 600 Block Value.

With the 8 HS charge i felt Rock solid. It's too bad i didn't get to tank anything meaning full but it was fun to Tank both Attumen and Midnight at the same time and living through it while remainign crush immune until my Holy shield cooldown was up again.

That lead me to the idea of changing Blessing of Sanctuary to add a % of your BV (just like and stacking with shield spec) instead of the flat little -dmg reduction. But that's for another matter.

 

Hozz

I will echo what some others have said. Block value is awesome for Heroic 5 mans.

But yes I think block value is overvalued on the item budgets.