I'm an active reader of the EJ forums and R&D forums but never really bothered to participate in discussion.

However, this topic I have been following, waiting on some hardcore number crunching and comparisons. I plan to add theorycraft to practice on our next Gruul kill this week and see how it goes myself. I've collected alot of +spell dmg gear and I don't think I'll be anywhere close to the gear of our top rogue/mage/lock/spriest but this is more of a test as I will be respeccing healer again (at least i can top that meter haha).

Anyways, a little background first. I'm from Jubei'Thos <Genesis> (www.genesiswow.com) and I've done my fair share of DPS as feral and then gone balance/resto (regrowth spam with spi for 5sr regen). As subjective as this may sound, I do believe my guild has DPS'ers who know how to DPS and it will be very hard to even come close. Was pretty hard already to convince my Guild master but they're very accepting players who are open to new ideas so this is not a vendetta against any other classes. And a little on the boasting side, yeah my guild is up there in PvE progression, attempting Void Reaver tomorrow night ^_^.

My gear is on armory.
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#...%27Thos&n=Bias

~850 spell dmg, ~5% hit, ~21% (~25% if u consider talents) crit unbuffed but in Moonkin form.

The encounter will be no consumeables (except for Super Mana Potions), fully raid buffed with 3 pallies (hopefully). I will not purposely skew the data in favour of moonkins but let me know if there is anything else I need to look out for or have missed.

The group I will be in:
Moonkin (47/0/14)
Resto Shaman (Mana tide)
Shadow Priest (OP PvE imo but that's probably in another thread)
Warlock (DS/SnF)
Mage (obviously fire-specced, something like 10/48/3)

DPS Cycle will be as Boevis stated (IS -> SF x 3 -> Wrath). Depending on NG procs, I might throw in an additional SF.

As stated again, this is just for experimental measures. This is not to justify Moonkin raid viability as that topic can get very subjective and goes beyond simple theorycraft mechanics as it really comes down to individual guild compositions, encounters, min/maxing, etc.

If you have an enhancement shaman in the guild, using some stormstrike charges would probably help out a lot if you run another test.

I think something really lacking from the current moonkin theorycrafting (as little as there is) is an analysis of potential dps and what kind of groups are advisable/required to make it feasible/exceptional. Add in a basic primer for the other theorycrafters and raid leaders to work with, and you'll have a much stronger thread with information that's usable by the community.

Concrete dps samples are nice, but tend to be riddled with consumable/skill/grouping bias and are usually dismissed by the community FOR those bias' even if they had something real to show.

Work with me here, because you're not the first moonkin I've seen fly by and I'd hate to see another offspec thread go splat- especially if there's something really viable the community might be missing out on.

What are your spell cycles? Why? What are the coefficients on the spells you use, and the buffs/debuffs that you manage along with proc rates if applicable. I think you'll find that Moonkin are one of the rarest offspecs not only because of the community bias against them, but because there's not a lot of good info out there for NEW moonkin and other druids who are looking at the possibility of going moonkin.

Once you've got your basic set of assumptions (again: coefficients, buffs, debuffs, spell cycles, procs/rates)... Gearing. What makes moonkin gear great? Taking the class beyond the initial "holy crap there's leather and it's got some caster stats..." stage- what amount of crit is strongest? Is crit or spell damage the stronger mod for your spells... why? What crit bonus' do you get and what, if any, procs/cycles/buffs/debuffs depend on crit? Once you've determined the proper balance of crit vs. spell damage- look at limitations.

Are you threat limited or mana limited? Prove it. If the assumption is mana limitation- lets see some numbers on average dps cycles with various regen opportunities. Buffs, synergies, etc. Can a mana limited Moonkin stretch thier mana out to 7 min in a patchwerk style fight (this is a community benchmark and so a great place to start even if this type of fight doesn't exist in TBC), and if so- at what cost to dps? Hint- you can ALWAYS draga fight to 7 min, but the sacrifice may be counted too high. find out what you have to do to accomplish 7 min, even if it's stupid. If the assumption is threat limitation- prove mana solvency (acceptable dps at the 3, 5, and 7 min marks) and determine dps. Consider -threat buffs/talents (if any) and figgure out where the balance shifts form threat limited to mana limited. All mana based classes eventually shift to mana limited unless the assumptions include multiple shadow priests (cheating!)

There's a massive body of theorycraft out there for virtually every class- including healing and feral druids. The actual numbers for moonkin seem to be lost because every time a moonkin wanders in, they tend to either start off overly agressive (I'm FINE as an offspec ACCEPT ME. Hint: This is the WRONG attitude.) or unable to help the community take the research a step further. When you're one of the super rare raiding offspecs, the burden of proof falls heavily on your shoulders- trust me, I was a Naxx shadow priest when shadow priests were laughed out of serious raiding guilds... you can help bring acceptance to your offspec through education, but not brute force.

Give us some numbers to play with!

Edit: The DPS worksheet thread had the start of some good number crunching (man I hate that the new cookie system lets me miss some good threads), consolidating those numbers into one place and chewing on them for a bit longer helps. I notice you moved the original two posts out of the worksheet thread into a new thread- why?

I don't understand your damage meter. You have Imp FF but no enhance shaman, one rogue and I guess an MS warrior. The hunters would be pretty much hit capped unless they regeared to accomidate your talent. Seems that Imp FF is a waste in this situation.

In retrospect, if I was dpsing my heart out then yes, iFF wouldn't have been as justified as other encounters. However, as I said in my Conclusion, I was constantly threat capped so I used it to somewhat help the raid. It has a 40 second duration so refreshing it won't take alot out of my DPS.

To provide additional data other groups' make up is shown below (top left of UI) :



Ignore Group 6 (as we were subbing people for in SSC) and I'm not sure who the person missing from Group 2 is.

As you can see, every dps mana class except for Hunter Goren had a Shadow priest in their group as well..don't think mana was an issue for anyone on Gruul though not entirely sure. The melee classes had Urial for WF.

Thanks =D I'm not being argumentative, I'm really trying to help by nailing down the variables for yall in one place so anyone else can jump in and help working out the details without intimate knowledge of the class. I don't know how many times I had to recite *1.10*1.10*1.15*1.15*1.05 to myself while working on shadow priest numbers.

First things first though, let Gruul/your gear go. Concrete numbers are great for proving theory in reality, but should not be the basis for theory. =)

Love the spell info though, many thanks. I'll go look up base damage in a bit. Base damage + coefficient + crit mod = happiness for theorycrafting =)

Gearing- what's out there? Assuming perfect conditions, what kind of gear *could* a moonkin get- and what kind gear would they want? Unless you have a perfect moonkin set =) A few people got close to the perfect PvE shadow priest sets in Naxx, but I don't believe anyone ever actually finished it perfectly.

Another gearing question- are there any appreciable differences between using leather vs cloth other than being sexy in leather? Would a starfire spamming moonkin benefit from the Spellfire set? (Wandering through your armor profile, some of your choices make me /nod. If I'd have started picking randomly I'd probably have made some of the same choices ^.^) Do any of the leather druid sets out there have set bonuses that jsut make them better than the other choices?

Hard evidence is there! It's just not going to come from actual combat unless you're putting a theory to test and confirmation. You're starting with the assumption that you start off threat limited (I'm happy to hear it, my impression from the other thread was that Moonkins are much more mana limited) so what is the paper dps going to look like to support that?

(EDIT: Skip down to second post for talented numbers)
Lets see.
884+dmg (never hurts to start with what you have on hand)

Wrath spam, totally untalented @ .57coeff base damage. 225mana 381-429base damage (405 avg for ease of calcs)
884*.57=503.88(round up to)=504 405+504= 909damage hits*2=1818/3=606 dps with no crit chance included. Not shabby, tbh.

Next: Assume 25% crit, 200%crit damage.
60seconds, 40 casts, 10ppm of 909dmg. 909*10=9090/60seconds= +151dps so total dps inc 25%crit rate + double crits = 757dps.

Not sure if you have any other % mods in your tree, I'll have to go back through it in a moment. (I've never played a druid past levle 16, can't actually stand playing the class) but that's also not including misery or any potting. Not bad for just off the cuff numbers.

Now why go through something that simple? Because it's hard numbers. It's not reality, but reality includes cave in's reverberations and other factors impossible to model.... and what's needed is solid modeling- then once you've modeled it with different groups/buffs and lengths of fights, you can start to look at it outside the pure dps role (which we've hopefully proven is competitive in a theoretical environment) and see what kind of utility it brings in addition.

Will look at starfire in a moment, grabbing my poptarts out of the toaster =)

Did you do any spot healing or down-ranking to keep from pulling aggro?

Okay, back with breakfast! Just looked at the talent tree and it's got some nice stuff- makes those Wrath numbers even more happy =)

Relevant talents for Theorycrafting Moonkin:
Starlight Wrath- .5sec cast time reduction
Focused Starlight- 4% crit for starfire/Wrath
Vengence- 100% critical strike bonus
*Lunar Guidance 25% intellect as spldmg
Nature's Grace- Crits reduce next cast time by .5sec
Moonglow 9% mana reduction on Starfire/Wrath/Moonfire
Moonfury- 10% increase in damage to Starfire/Moonfire/Wrath
Balance of Power 4% spell hit
Dreamstate 10% intellect as m/5 in combat
Moonkin- 5% crit
Wrath of Cenarius- Starfire gains 20% of bonus damage effects, Wrath gains 10% of bonus damage effects.

Next questions. 1) Is Moonfury after the applied coefficient? I'd assume so, but for a long time priests had some numbers that were before darkenss, and some that were after.
2) Is 25% *base* crit a reasonable assumption for a Moonkin? Talents add in 9% crit to the two relevant spells and I get the feeling that talents were assumed. Lets not. Lets instead go with a base 20% crit rating which is certainly reachable with an eye towards crit gear.... so assume 29% crit for a top of the line geared moonkin. Always reach for the best gear you can in calculations- because other classes will compare it to thier top of the line gear, and IF you can prove that op of the line gear makes moonkin viable- that gear will be given. If one class assumes blues and the other assumes T5, it can inflate the differences.
3) (and perhaps most importantly) Is Wrath of Cenarius included in your base coefficients?
4) Is the character sheet counting lunar guidnace? It's rough to model.

Lets assume WoC is included, Moonglow after coeff, and 29% crit and do those numbers again.

Wrath spam
@ .57coeff base damage. 225mana 381-429base damage (405 avg for ease of calcs)
884*.57=503.88(round up to)=504 405+504= 909damage hits*1.10=999.9(round up to)=1000*2=2000/3=666.66 dps with no crit chance included.

Next: Assume 29% crit, 200%crit damage.
60seconds, 40 casts, 11.6ppm of 1000dmg. 1000*11.6=11600/60seconds= +193.33dps so total dps inc 25%crit rate + double crits = 859.99dps.

Muuuuuch better.

Starfire spam
@100% coefficient 540-636 base damage (588avg for ease of calcs)
884*1.0=884 588+884=1472 damage hits*1.10=1619.2/3= 539.7dps with no crit chance included.
Next: assume 29% crit, 200% bonus damage and base NG calc
60 seconds, 20 casts, 5.8ppm of 1619dmg and -.5cast time. 1619*5.8=9390.2dmg 9390.2/60=+156.5. = 696.2dps
5.8*.5=2.9seconds of casting at 696.2dps = 2018.98 damage/60seonds = +33.6dps

for a total of 729.9dps. Pretty heavy downgrade from Wrath. Both are actually a lot closer than I expected to the 900-1000 dps numbers that get thrown around the mage theorycrafting threads.... and are probably better with more concise understanding of talent application.

Edit- you know, the more I look at this- assuming Starfire is the reasonable choice for mana conservation- gearing like a full arcane mage is close to the very best thing possible, unless there are leather pieces out there with stronger damage/crit. Heading over to the mage thread to see what some basic gear assumptions are for a fully kitted out Arcane mage so there are really good comparable numbers =)

Any idea what the picture would look like if you hadn't been grouped with a shadow priest? Would your dps cycle be different to have higher dpm? Would you have been more mana-limited than threat-limited? If you would be mana-limited, are you still more desirable from a dps perspective due to Moonkin Aura (like if you attribute 5% crit damage from your party to you instead of them)?

The one big thing that strikes me about Nature's Grace (reduced cast time after crit) is that the effect is similar to Quagmirran's Eye - the proc increases your dps, but under constant situations, it doesn't increase your dpm, so you dps harder but burn mana harder too. Stuff like that is awesome if you aren't mana-limited, but if you are, it's a drag. Now if you had temporary buffs, such as the Icon of the Silver Crescent up, then the haste would increase your dpm cause you'd maybe get an extra spell off with the Icon buff. It makes me wonder if optimal moonkin gear would focus on +damage procs along with the crit or whether it should just forget about crit and go for something cheaper in terms of ilvl like hit.

Some help for you my friend. I'm a raiding moonkin. Its something thats a bit of a curse, and a blessing. Im probably the best geared moonkin there is, becuase ive been able to prove my usefulness. Sadly there are few times where I am able to dps for an entire fight. Usually I dps in certain areas of a fight. Example: For mags I dps the first 3 channelers, then help out on healing til the 5th channeler goes down, then keep healing/dpsing making sure everything is settleled, then Im back to dps to help the demon die faster. What complains about is correct, we are an incredibly mana intensive class when played correctly. And that doesnt even include the fact that we have to switch forms to pop a brez here and there(that 2500mana hit is brutal).

I run 800 spell dmg and around 29% moonkin buffed crit. (if you check my armory Im wearing my pvp chestpiece, Im at work and logged out last night after an arena. Anyway, normally that crit is higher). An elemental shaman, and raid buffed puts me up at around 35% crit.

There are several important parts of moonkin dps you seem to have not learned yet. First off, stack the hell out of crit. Because of our talents crit gives us the biggest dmg buff. It makes our spells cast faster, and our crits do much more dmg then our normal hits(Normal starfires hit for lowend 1800, top end starfire crits ive had raid buffed are a little over 6k).


I dont stack a lot of hit, sometimes if i get a bad string of resists this can hurt me, however if I have a elemental shaman in my group its GG.

Wrath is your spell of choice. After you get all your nice raid debuffs in, throw a moonfire, then spam the shit out of wrath. There are several mechanics reasons for this. First, hopefully you hvae an enhance shaman. This makes every 4th or 5th wrath hit for 20% more. Second, its a 1.5 second cast, when it crits its a 1second cast. This is exactly the amount of time on your gcd. So raid spamming, a string of crits means 2500-3000 1 second casts(which with a gcd makes these pretty much instant cast spells). That is incredible dmg output. However the mana on the spell is still the same, and you will get drained very quickly. However, if like in your tests you have a shadow priest, you should be fine.

The only time I use starfire is when my quags eye pops. Quags eye proc with a crit means wrath is down to .73second cast, faster then the global cooldown, meaning im losing casting time. When that happens i cast 2 starfires and then get back to my wrath spam.


So in closing, I'd suggest you retry your dps attempts for your guild(if you'd like to prove to them the potential of moonkin). Take a week to farm up some different gear, get your crit higher. If you have elemental shaman in the raid, try to get him in your group, if not, no loss really.
Then for your cycle. Make sure you keep your raid debuffs up when needed(i.e. insect swarm is kinda a waste on channelers in mags, or on gruul before the 8th grow). Then keep a moonfire up, then spam the shit out of wrath. I think you'll see even more impressive results. You should be in that top 5.