Elitist Jerks Moonkin DPS Numbers/Comparisons

04/26/07, 9:54 AM   #151
Darkmantle
King Hippo

Gnome Warlock

Spinebreaker
 Originally Posted by Efejel Re-write the equation with the hit term where you think it belongs & I'll let you know the DPS. At ~32% crit * 1% miss = it might be as much as 0.32% more DPS! But, I've never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that the system you're talking about is used to determine hits/crits/resists for casters. Anyone have some?
For a partially resistable spell
Partial resist is factored in before the hit/crit
Proof: Good old crit + partial resist at the same time leading to a sigh of the timing of the partial resist.

As for whether full resist, hit and crit are on one roll I recall no definitive parse that demonstrates this, I will attempt to create one when I have less assignments to avoid. Problem is its very hard to find a good lvl 73 target to get a decent sample size on. With a 20% crit rate and no +hit at all you would see about a decrease in observed crit rate to 16.8% which would be rather hard to demonstrate to a sufficient degree given the number of lvl 73 targets just sitting around the place Oh for good old fordring how we do miss you.

To test it the best I can think of would be to cast too many low ranked spells at Dr boom with no hit gear and 4% hit gear and see if there is any statistically significant difference in crit rate. Somebody with a higher crit rate than my poor warlock would be good for this

04/26/07, 2:46 PM   #152
Caliane
Piston Honda

Night Elf Druid

Skullcrusher
 Originally Posted by Darkmantle For a partially resistable spell Partial resist is factored in before the hit/crit Proof: Good old crit + partial resist at the same time leading to a sigh of the timing of the partial resist. As for whether full resist, hit and crit are on one roll I recall no definitive parse that demonstrates this, I will attempt to create one when I have less assignments to avoid. Problem is its very hard to find a good lvl 73 target to get a decent sample size on. With a 20% crit rate and no +hit at all you would see about a decrease in observed crit rate to 16.8% which would be rather hard to demonstrate to a sufficient degree given the number of lvl 73 targets just sitting around the place Oh for good old fordring how we do miss you. To test it the best I can think of would be to cast too many low ranked spells at Dr boom with no hit gear and 4% hit gear and see if there is any statistically significant difference in crit rate. Somebody with a higher crit rate than my poor warlock would be good for this

Clearly we need a level 67 fire mage!

04/26/07, 5:43 PM   #153
Efejel
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Efejel 702 +dmg from gear With 2/2 Imp MF and 0/5 Moonfury: 451 (902 crit) - 509 (1015 crit--sorry, it was boring) Tick: 265-266 [Spell pane: 335-393, 660]
( 451 + 509 ) / 2 = 480
( 335 + 393 ) / 2 = 364
480 - 364 = 116
116 / 702 = .1502
.1502 / 1.1 = .1365

265 + 266 + 265 + 266 = 1062
1062 - 660 = 402
402 / 702 = .5726
.5726 / 1.1 = .5205

 Originally Posted by Efejel With 2/2 Imp MF & 5/5 Moonfury: 492 (985 crit) - 555 (1110 crit) Tick: 289-290 [SP: 366-429, 720]
( 492 + 555 ) / 2 = 523.5
( 366 + 429 ) / 2 = 397.5
523.5 - 397.5 = 126
126 / 702 = .1795
.1795 / 1.2 = .1496
Expected: 331 / ( 331 + 600 ) = 0.3555 * ( 1.5 / 3.5 ) = .1524

289 + 290 + 290 + 290 = 1159
1159 - 720 = 439
439 / 702 = .6254
.6254 / 1.2 = .5211
Expected: 600 / 931 = 0.6445 * ( 12 / 15 ) = .5158

04/26/07, 6:12 PM   #154
Yes
Bald Bull

Tauren Druid

Dragonmaw
 Originally Posted by Efejel I'd challenge this assumption currently for non-top-end raiders, and post-2.1 with non-stacking consumables.
Surely if you're a moonkin you will be put in a shaman group (+101/121)
And your talent will give you another 120
And you might consumable for another 70 easy damage (weapon, elixir) << post 2.01 (I believe you can get 23+40+70 post 2.01 total)
And Imp Spirit will give you another 23~ damage

That leaves 980~ spelldamage from gear. Looks like a very very reasonable number with spellfire and other mage items!

Also, can we verify wrath coefficient with perhaps some tests?

I think it is (avg + spelldmg *1.1*2/3.5)*talents,modififers,etc

04/26/07, 7:04 PM   #155
Efejel
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Yes Also, can we verify wrath coefficient with perhaps some tests?
What tests do you want me to do? As I mentioned, I cast 250+ wraths with exactly 800 +dmg from gear & iMotW and got an observed minimum of 1013 (my coeff. predicts 1012.857) and observed maximum of 2130 crit (my coeff. predicts 2131.714).

 04/26/07, 7:14 PM #156 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight Screenshot of SWStats record of 2130 crit & 800 +dmg from gear.
 04/27/07, 3:18 AM #157 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight 702 +dmg gear 5/5 Moonfury Various points in WoC Wrath rank 10 (422-475) 0/5: 863-916 1/5: 878.5-931 2/5: 893.5-947 3/5: 909-962.5 4/5: 924-977 5/5: 940-993 441/702 = .6282 456.25/702 = .6499 (+ .0217) 471.75/702 = .6720 (+ .0221) 487.25/702 = .6941 (+ .0221) 502/702 = .7151 (+ .0210) 518/702 = .7379 (+ .0228)
 04/27/07, 12:12 PM #158 Yes Bald Bull     Diziet Tauren Druid   Dragonmaw I believe you, sir, and I have changed my calculations to reflect this increase in dpm and dps. Wrath still looks barely chaincastable in raids (only sustainable with spriest and pots, but it does look like an excellent burn an add down tool, say for lurker below.
04/27/07, 1:06 PM   #159
Lambach
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Cenarion Circle
 Originally Posted by Yes I believe you, sir, and I have changed my calculations to reflect this increase in dpm and dps. Wrath still looks barely chaincastable in raids (only sustainable with spriest and pots, but it does look like an excellent burn an add down tool, say for lurker below.
The innervate every 5 minutes makes it doable pretty easily.

 04/27/07, 8:06 PM #160 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight Yes, do you have any suggestions on the proper way to model latency & NG procs for Wrath? If you're using a +0.4s latency model, normal Wraths would clock in at 1.9 sec cast time. Obviously, 1.9 / 1.5 is much worse than 3.4 / 3.0 and the lag-inclusive model of Wrath DPS suffers greatly. However, if we consider a post-crit Wrath with a 1.0s cast time + 0.4s latency, and round up to the GCD --> 1.5s, we end up with (1.9 / 1.5)*p + (1.5 / 1.5)*q where p = non-crit rate, q = crit rate. I'm just not sure if you can do that. If you can, it changes the gear I'd suggest from 1014.4 DPS for chain-cast Wrath to 1100.1 DPS, not a small gain. The actual gains would include more proc based effects, especially Mystical Skyfire Diamond & trinkets (The Lightning Capacitor, Sextant of Unstable Currents, Quag's Eye). Also, you mention that Wrath of Air totems can sometimes give 121 +dmg? I looked around and was unable to find a talent that would cause this. Is this a talent, or a set/item bonus?
04/27/07, 8:21 PM   #161
Eylirria
Piston Honda

Pandaren Mage

Whisperwind
 Originally Posted by Efejel Also, you mention that Wrath of Air totems can sometimes give 121 +dmg? I looked around and was unable to find a talent that would cause this. Is this a talent, or a set/item bonus?
Cyclone Regalia:

2: Your Wrath of Air Totem ability grants an additional 20 spell damage.

Set bonus for T4.

 04/27/07, 10:57 PM #162 Yes Bald Bull     Diziet Tauren Druid   Dragonmaw The way I modeled it now was using an average: ie: Cast time = 1.5 + latency -( .5 * crit rate ) I think this yields a fair aproximation of average cast time. IF, if, on crits your cast time CAN NOT drop below 1.5 seconds (I am fairly certain it can, but this would require loatheb to test ) one can dig up a function in excel that rounds anything lower then 1.5 to 1.5 and to it via an average *stupid mathematical plug I found relevant* Two trains 200 miles apart are moving toward each other; each one is going at a speed of 50 miles per hour. A fly starting on the front of one of them flies back and forth between them at a rate of 75 miles per hour. It does this until the trains collide and crush the fly to death. What is the total distance the fly has flown? When this problem was posed to John von Neumann, he immediately replied, "150 miles." "It is very strange," said the poser, "but nearly everyone tries to sum the infinite series." "What do you mean, strange?" asked Von Neumann. "That's how I did it!"
 04/28/07, 12:34 AM #163 Darkmantle King Hippo   Darkmantle Gnome Warlock   Spinebreaker I take it the pont is this: Trains take 2 hours to meet one another. The fly is flying at a constant speed of 75 miles per hour so will fly 150 miles before the trains meet. On a more serious note does anyone have a balance druid with 40-50 ms that could seriously test wrath global cooldown with nature's grace?
 04/28/07, 1:02 AM #164 Efejel Piston Honda   Efejel Tauren Druid   Dragonblight http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...93031997&sid=1 This is a thread I did to post how NG procs work with Wrath. Here's the video (the slow, large file version): http://files.filefront.com/NGvsGSC3m.../fileinfo.html Last edited by Efejel : 04/28/07 at 1:16 AM. Reason: Me good grammar.
 04/28/07, 6:31 PM #165 Boevis Bald Bull     Ex-Boevis Tauren Druid   Lightbringer nervermind Last edited by Boevis : 04/28/07 at 6:36 PM. Reason: bad math

 Elitist Jerks Moonkin DPS Numbers/Comparisons